Meeting the VICSIM FAMILIES

The notion of 'thousands of victims' was crucial to generate universal public outrage. However, having 3000 angry families breathing down their necks was never part of the perps' demented plan. Our ongoing analyses and investigations suggest that NO one died on 9/11.
Brutal Metal
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Re: Meeting the VICSIM FAMILIES

Unread post by Brutal Metal »

Well said Simon most members here want to get to the bottom of this WHOLE 911 ordeal, we're not prone to lashing out against others, BUT even if I went to this memorial by my lonesome I would have taken photos of the family members and all the other stuff she described inside the bar so we could see for ourselves! I'm done lashing out against her!
hoi.polloi
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Re: Meeting the VICSIM FAMILIES

Unread post by hoi.polloi »

I want to emphasize again that the story sounds like the kind of activism I'd really like to see. Whether this specific act of activism actually happened or not apparently remains to be seen.

It would be nice if they had the motivation to show us the hand-out.

But hopefully, at least, we can say that SaiGirl's story about local activists around the world is true and at most was borrowed from a growing history of real civil rights activists. I know I've heard it before from people I knew were not liars and had a genuine interest in the truth getting out. I've also seen small brave little events like this happen all over. I only wish we could prove that a liar isn't the latest one who inspired it. No matter. As long as you don't take any of this thread too seriously, you'll notice it's not very important. Simon commissioned her to do an investigation. SaiGirl has a credible story to back up her lack of information, even if her delivery reads somewhat like that of a method actor.

I personally think we might all take it as a lesson to do some groundpounding ourselves. :)
nonhocapito
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Re: Meeting the VICSIM FAMILIES

Unread post by nonhocapito »

Well in a general sense I agree with you, Hoi-- but in this specific case I am of a different opinion.

I don't think that going to a fundraiser scam put up by actors and agents of sorts is good activism. I mean, it falls more under the category of "research" than the one of "activism". It is out of curiosity and provocation that one can go to these events, to try and prove how it is all a farce, or to let them know that we are aware of the scam.

But who am I going to find there if not people who are already part of the scam, and suckers who want to get into the deal, pledging "charity" money to really advance their social positions and exchange favors? I don't think a situation like this one is really the best to spread "the good news", but rather to make some symbolic act, have the cops called on you, and maybe gain some credit with your no-life internet pals... :D

To do "activism", if one wants to call it so, I would rather go where the real people are. People who have no interest and no direct connection to the 9/11 scam, and only suffer the psychological-cultural-historical consequences of it. I tend to think that we need for this idea to gain momentum, to become widespread -- before we can start thinking at using it in direct confrontations "with the perps".

p.s. I thought you said before it was better not to trust Sai Girl, any particular reason why you changed your mind? I am only curious because I have no preconceived notion about it. Still waiting for the goods that she "will certainly deliver" ;)
brianv
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Re: Meeting the VICSIM FAMILIES

Unread post by brianv »

Activism is Institutionialised or top-down stereotyping or pigeonholing of media-fed numpties! Civil rights activism didn't leave anyone freer, the bar was lowered, it made everyone into slaves. Why too do twats feel the need to "occupy" their own fucking cities? Aren't they already "occupied"? Idiots. Occupy is a militaristic term, and it immediately places you in opposition to the PTB - exactly what they want! There you go into your slot!

I'll punch your face in if you don't believe me! Activism in action!

Curious case of flip-flopping there Hoi?
upstream
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Re: Meeting the VICSIM FAMILIES

Unread post by upstream »

The unique and rare knowledge attained by frequenters of this site cannot be spread through normal means of "activism".

To quote Nonhocapito from the Arizona thread
My chief interest lies in the educational, emancipatory work that we can do here. To show, explain, investigate how we should not trust the media, how things are faked. To help even one person to escape the grasp of the global propaganda and the fears that come attached to it. This is what I want to see happen, and this is why I find this research rewarding, this is why I am here. Naval gazing? I don't think so.
This is how we spread our knowledge. Through meaningful discourse. Using compelling evidence and logic.

This knowledge is EXTREMELY HARD to convey to the average person though, due to the overwhelming amount of propaganda one has to endure in their lifetime.

They have to want it. They have to work hard and be motivated to want this knowledge. One has to be invested and SPEND THE TIME (lots of it...) to wash off the life long indoctrination of bullshit.

Chanting slogans, handing out flyers, carrying signs, and marching in predetermined/police escorted routes does not achieve this. That achieves group-think. This is what I learned at G20 Toronto 2010. It's the easy way out.
Maat
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Re: Meeting the VICSIM FAMILIES

Unread post by Maat »

I've never been into FanFiction or internet RolePlay but saw more than enough of it on the writing site I moderated, so this episode is a bit too familiar for my liking. You'd be amazed how many supposed adults become obsessed with RolePlay (Wolf Clans, Vampires, Manga anime etc.) to the point of being so immersed in their fantasy personae they have feuds and harass fellow role players confusing fantasy and reality.

This narrative, apart from the tell-tale grandiloquence, has a number of discrepancies.

The Sai Girl 'report': http://cluesforum.info/viewtopic.php?p=2360974#p2360974
But the largest and most striking feature was a color picture of the late President Ronald Reagan posted against the background of an American flag. The huge picture of Reagan struck me as rather narrow and partisan for an ostensible “9/11 victim memorial event”.

Almost as though the memory of Reagan were more important than memorializing Liz. After all, Maryland is an overwhelmingly “blue” state. Republicans (and “conservatives”) are a small minority here. And the Baltimore metropolitan area is even more so.
...
It seemed strangely discordant and inappropriate to be so ideologically narrow and politically partisan around this kind of event. As though they were crassly and opportunistically exploiting “the tragedy of 9/11” to advance a minority factional agenda on behalf of the Republican Party.
The editorial spin in this "report" is quite funny when you discover that the Ropewalk Tavern, Federal Hill, has had the same 'Reagan theme' for years! :lol: http://www.ropewalktavern.com/

Guess she missed this life sized bronze of him:
Image
Image

More interior shots in their gallery:
http://www.ropewalktavern.com/ropewalk-photos.html

Also described in customer reviews of the Tavern:
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_R ... yland.html

However, if the Ropewalk Tavern "Wainio fundraiser" was real, it seems to have been very uneventful.
There's no mention of it in any TU papers afterwards, and nothing 'tweeted' by 'Sarah Rachael Wainio', or the few Twitter followers who supposedly attended, indicate anything unusual either — except to acknowledge they met each other there for the first time.
No way to know which, if any, of those Twit accounts are genuine of course, but interesting for comparison.
One would think that if anything unexpected like a Vicsim Report hand-out had occurred it would have been mentioned, if only as an opportunity for milking more sympathy and to ridicule 'nuts' who dare to 'disrespect' 9-11 'victims' ;)

See the Tweets from Oct 21-22 on:
http://twitter.com/#!/SarahRachael

http://twitter.com/#!/chrismaddox
http://twitter.com/#!/BicaKaldi
http://twitter.com/#!/lizrawr

Remembering that the Utoya "Youth Camp" — and 9-11 scammer Kosior's "essay contest" — were obviously only ever in print, I've actually wondered for quite a while if these supposed vicsim "fundraiser events" ever really occur at all, or just published 'announcements' as a propaganda reminder for conning donations. It would be so much easier for the lazy perps to do it that way; i.e. any not 'in the know' who called for tickets could be told they were booked out but a donation would be welcome (note Wainio thanked one Twitter user for their "financial support").

Speaking of "financial support", Lynn Ertell was apparently happy to throw money at politicians:
http://www.city-data.com/elec/elec-ELKRIDGE-MD.html
ELKRIDGE, Maryland (MD) Political Contributions by Individuals:
"Lynn Ertell (CSX Technology/systems analyst), (Zip code: 21075) $1000 to LIBERTARIAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE on 01/07/03"

* "Lynn Ertell, (Zip code: 21075) $2000 to CLARK FOR PRESIDENT INC on 12/20/03"

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/elec/elec-ELKR ... z1c0q081jo


Unfortunately, it seems any hope of obtaining some proof that any 9-11 Vicsim 'fundraiser' was actually held at the Ropewalk Tavern this year has been lost. <_<

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sai
Apropos quote from this androgynous character in a Manga anime series & game:
Sai: (To his team) "Sai is the name I was given for this mission… I'm nobody. I am a tool for Lord Danzō. I don't exist."



* (edit to add by simonshack :) )
hoi.polloi
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Re: Meeting the VICSIM FAMILIES

Unread post by hoi.polloi »

Curious case of flip-flopping there Hoi?
I never said SaiGirl was genuine. I believe Maat's investigation and prodding of her/his/its ("her") tale is interesting and provocative in a good way. I say credible in the sense that it is a quasi-realistic play. I never meant to imply that we should trust SaiGirl, and I personally never have. You may notice I don't trust anyone that much on this board. I suggest you do the same.

As for activism, I would not consider it time "wasted" to get people talking about this subject. Of course it's bullshit to sit in the public holding zoos and yell. I don't think anyone would or should compare that kind of thing to this.

Activism is effective. It is another form of power, even if it doesn't have the same effect historically as all manner of greed and violence and the propaganda lies we are trying to disempower. I would describe what we do as activism of some form. Punch yourself in the face if you want to. :P

Kidding, brianv. I appreciate your contributions most of the time. I just think you can be a little on the "let's give up" side when it suits your laziness. We all can. I do it all the time. But I also believe we have the right to be lazy about this matter since we are working so hard in a different way. As others have brought up: information organization.

Although I am a hardliner for "facts", I am very forgiving of what people want to do to share them as long as it's done in an honest up front way. Of course the ideal is that everyone on the planet stumbles into this web site but that won't happen so that's why I wrote on the Vicsim Report that it should be printed and shared. That is why I am physically walking around outside my home and talking to people. Because I have hope in people. That has nothing to do with sitting in the public cages and yelling or the bullshit G8/G20 summit stuff.

I merely want to stress that if Simon is commissioning people he trusts (for any good reason? Simon, I'd still like to know why you had someone go do this and at that someone as weird as SaiGirl?) to go do stunts like this, he must have a reason he thinks it could be effective.
brianv
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Re: Meeting the VICSIM FAMILIES

Unread post by brianv »

"Activism is effective. "

In 1967/8 activists from The Catholic minority in Northern Ireland took to the streets to demand civil rights, what they got was a thirty year filthy war of attrition and ending in a highly militarised society with armed police and surveillece, unsurpassed anywhere, up their asses. They walked...marched right into it!! Now they have the right to vote for a clown and watch the X-Factor.

"It is another form of power."

Someone Explained it to me thus:

God -> Man -> Government -> Legal...etc

Is the way of nature, the proper hierarchy!

What the PTB have achieved through wars, slavery, banking, courts etc is this :

God -> Government -> Legal -> Man

People are empowered at birth with their god given rights which are duly handed to corporate interests at the moment of registering the child with the State. This is when you lose al your rights, to be replaced by a "legal" la-la land of acts, statutes and by-laws known as "freedoms" and "privileges", the products of someones imagination, written down, spelled , into a document! An ACT.

Yes, I agree about the lazy bit! Keyboard commando burn-out mostly but other interests too! Like my Les Paul and PodXT Live B) and one for Sai Girl, my 2/3 times a week in the Dojo :P Which I have never waved at anyone!!!!. Walking on thin ice here with my missus!
hoi.polloi
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Re: Meeting the VICSIM FAMILIES

Unread post by hoi.polloi »

Well I agree that activism can be derailed or people can be manipulated through it into wars, slavery and "crack-downs". And have. Of course that's what September Clues is all about - recognizing how the "activism against terrorism" is a hoax. But look - we've already somewhat walked right into that one, didn't we? Despite the largest peaceful organizations around the world protesting the U.S.A.'s newest "invasion" of Afghanistan in 2001 and then - to make matters worse, Iraq and now other countries - it was nothing against the political figures who felt threatened by anthrax and the enormous media hoax of 9/11 and 7/7, etc.

I just believe there's good activism and bad activism. I for one would like to see more people handing out little Sept. Clues leaflets once in a while. Not because that's the ultimate solution (In fact, something more creative can and should be done, which is the point of the "Art Corner" on this board) but because presently it's not being done and reported on at all except by me, Simon, grooviegoolie (if his narratives can be trusted) and scant others.

Anyway this can all be discussed in the more appropriate threads. For now, I would like to see if other people have tried to "meet the Vockers" and if next time they can produce much more believable proof.
Brutal Metal
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Re: Meeting the VICSIM FAMILIES

Unread post by Brutal Metal »

WOW maat that's some good research there BUD, nicely done, that further shows that this event might not even have happened since this person could have seen those Reagan photos on the internet or just simply going inside on ANY day of the week! :D SalGirl has contributed at least $3000 to politicians but still has a $5 phone huh??
nonhocapito
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Re: Meeting the VICSIM FAMILIES

Unread post by nonhocapito »

Well her cellphone or her donations to politicians do not really enter in the story. I would not insist on personal stuff against this person (that we don't even know to be real for sure) because it only feeds the trolling... next she will take entire posts explaining her political sympathies or her cell phone use and I am not interested in any of that. It's not her being under scrutiny (not more than everyone else), only her story.

As to the Reagan detail, for now it proves nothing one way or another. It does not add credibility to her story, d'accord; but neither takes credibility away since it appears to be a correct detail, available to anyone decided to get some information about the tavern.

Let's stick to the very little we asked for, which is not being delivered:

the leaflets;
better reasoning behind the jeff hill statements;
maybe an explanation as to why "Simon and Hoi" should worry or not worry about being sued, a statement that makes no sense whatsoever -- as if these paid actors weren't already aware of September clues or the vicsim report, and only suddenly learned it from her leaflet. It seems almost as if this story hides the idea that the "family", despites the quotes around it, might be "real" and "really" offended. Very bizarre idea indeed.
brianv
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Re: Meeting the VICSIM FAMILIES

Unread post by brianv »

"It seems almost as if this story hides the idea that the "family", despites the quotes around it, might be "real" and "really" offended. Very bizarre idea indeed."

Not bizarre in the slightest!

I'm confused by this alleged activism! What was it's purpose if not to record, document and bring it to a wider audience? It seems the only affect it had was to wind the alleged family up! Thats not our purpose now is it?

It had no meaning if there is no record!

Perhaps she got the cop's name or badge-number, maybe he could verify her story! No on the other hand Jeff Hill would see this as an opening!
simonshack
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Re: Meeting the VICSIM FAMILIES

Unread post by simonshack »

hoi.polloi wrote: As long as you don't take any of this thread too seriously, you'll notice it's not very important. Simon commissioned her to do an investigation. SaiGirl has a credible story to back up her lack of information, even if her delivery reads somewhat like that of a method actor.
:)
Dear Hoi,

I agree: it's not that important at all. I did not exactly 'commission' her to go there (well, you might say I did, in a way...): she first sent me an e-mail on October 8, 2011. I'm sure she won't mind me publishing that private mail to me - it contains only a few of her thoughts concerning Sarah Wainio (the alleged sister of "Liz Wainio who allegedly died in Flight 93"):
SaiGirl wrote:
http://byrddroppings.typepad.com/byrd_d ... _that.html

This thing stinks to high heaven.
It screams “fraud”.
It oozes “money-making scam”.

http://www.ulmanfund.org/About-Us/Our-T ... ainio.aspx

http://gowalla.com/sarahrachael

I've grown up in this locale and spent most of my life here in Baltimore.
This particular case is so local to me that it has stuck itself in my craw for years now. I find myself getting obsessed by it.

Sarah Wainio, bereaved survivor/sister of the legendary "Elizabeth Wainio", (remember the tattooed wrist with "Honor" on it ?) is fronting for this money-making scheme.

She's got to be a linchpin of the whole rotten narrative.

How does a graduate of Fordham University end up making a career as a barmaid and server at "The Ropewalk Tavern", a local sports bar catering to an isolated clique of marginal right-wing pro-war freaks here in liberal Baltimore ?
So I looked around a bit on the web - and found this:
http://www.tutigertracks.com/s/108/inde ... &ecid=1943
Image

Next, I just mailed her back with the above link and asked her if she would consider going there (and offered her to paypal the $40 participation fee if needed - half-jokingly). She did not respond to that mail, so the sentence highlighted in red type below) SaiGirl wrote on page 4 of this thread is incorrect (i.e. I received no message from her that she would go and that she could easily afford it):

http://www.cluesforum.info/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2361155
Sai Girl wrote:Simon originally asked if I could attend the event and even offered to pay the 40 bucks.
I replied that I could easily afford it and would report back to him on the event.
On October 23, she just sent me her "Report from the front lines" (her adventures at the Ropewalk Tavern) as published in the first post of this thread.

It goes without saying that - if I had known at the time what I know now (her connections with Nico Haupt, Webfairy et al !... - and her vouching for "Jeff Hill") I would never have 'commissioned' her to go there. Hoi, you have taught me a lot about being more wary/suspicious of people than I am naturally inclined to, but if I hadn't taken the chance of inviting you to my house (knowing next to nothing about you), we'd never been digging so deeply into the 9/11 vicsims - and there would be no Vicsim Report. All in all, my 'success rate' of inviting 9/11 researchers to my house (about a dozen of them, of which 2 or 3 turned out to be harmless spooks) isn't that bad after all. Agreed? :)

***************************
ps: SaiGirl still hasn't sent me the 6-page handout. I'll be patiently waiting... <_<
hoi.polloi
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Re: Meeting the VICSIM FAMILIES

Unread post by hoi.polloi »

Totally agreed. I am glad that you have exposed her/him/it as the liar she/he/it is.

It's probably okay that we have these adventures once in a while to get people to understand the kind of bullshit we have to deal with. (Not saying I want any more of SaiGirl BS! Just trying to be positive!)

I am still going to do my investigation, but now I will remember to do it with pictures and better documentation.

Now that I think about it, it does seem like SaiGirl basically just tried to reinforce the idea that there are "real family members" bothering to gather at such weird events. I will not make the same mistake of assuming anyone is who they say they are at such an event now that it's abundantly clear the perps put this much thought (and we can assume some kind of spy salary!?) into the intricacies of the hoax.
Sai Girl
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Re: Meeting the VICSIM FAMILIES

Unread post by Sai Girl »

Just got back here ...

What is it exactly your asking for, since I don't have cellphone photos or video of last Saturday's "action"
Last edited by Sai Girl on Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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