omaxsteve wrote:I don't understand the hostility displayed here by some towards people who claim to have known one of the victims.
Because, obviously, it is a ruse that would be used by someone whose only purpose would be the erosion of the vicsim research. A situation that pops up here from time to time.
Frankly, it's a little hard for me to believe that someone wouldn't understand that. And, when expressed by someone who himself claims to know a 9/11 victim (or is related to someone who does) it becomes downright incredible.
With all due respect, Lux, that IS the whole point. I have stated, on numerous occasions that I believe that the VicSim research is sound, and I believe wholeheartedly that the huge majority if the VicSims were computer generated. I also happen to believe that "some" of the alleged Vics were taken from flesh and blood living people. I do not believe that the two are mutually exclusive, in fact, if the VicSim theory rests on the fact that ALL of Vics were computer generated entities , it would lose much of, if not all, its credibility.
The reason I would be more open and less hostile to posters who claim to have known a Vic, is that my opinion is that those “real vics" were chosen for a reason. Perhaps that is why their wives and families are the ones that are chosen to be celebrities, those that are often interviewed, and those that head up the different foundations. Think about it, if the perps did not utilize any "real" Vics where would the media find their pool of "celebrity" family members to parade on the airwaves?
I do not believe that these "real" Vics died in the towers, and, thanks to Simon and September Clues, I KNOW that they did not die in the non-existent airplanes. For all I know, they may still be alive and living with a new identity.
As you stated, I do admit to having a relative that “knew” a vic. I posted such in March 2010.
omaxsteve @ Mar 29 2010, 12:58 AM wrote:
My problem, is what about those victime that in fact really did exist. My sister is visiting from Maryland, and she knows (or knew) a victim who supposedly crashed in the plane at the pentagon. His name was Todd Reuben. In fact two weeks before sept 11, she sat at the same table as Todd Reuben and his wife at a wedding reception. Her daughter (my niece) was a class mate of one of Todd Reuben's children.
My sister reports that the former Mrs. Reuben has since moved to Florida and has remarried. She also said that she never showed any interest whatsoever in participating in any memorials.
I would love to believe that all the victims were "sims" but this person obviously existed. Is it possible that he is still alive and has assumed a different identity? I guess so.
One thing that I am absolutely certain of is that if he is in fact dead, he did not die on a plane that crashed in to the pentagon.
Has anyone done any research on this particular victim?
So according to your logic either my sister and my niece are lying, or I am a shill, is that correct, Lux?
I can, and in fact have, asked my sister for proof of this Todd Reuben`s existence but she has nothing that would “stand up” as solid evidence. (My sister, thinks I am crazy for even believing that there were no planes and she refuses to look at the evidence), I can prove that (at least one) of the entities purported to be Todd Reuben's daughter existed, but what difference would that make?
Do you not include yourself from that expectation? You may want to after it was shown you could not and are still complaining about it and defending blindedbyscience. Why, if you are valuable at telling a difference that we can't see, are you still hammering into this particular case - one of the worst examples of a shill, if not the worst, we've ever encountered?
Never before this have we actually gotten a shill that said, 'Hey, you're right, I'm a shill!' and yet you're still seeing stuff "in the pixels"? What? Pray tell, what is it?
Personally, I don’t believe that BBS was “the worst example” of a shill. (Unless you are saying worst from the perp’s perspective). While her actions, and the messages she sent to Simon after her departure indicate that she has "issues" , nothing that she claimed, none of the evidence she provided, did anything to damage the VicSim research. Let’s say, hypothetically, that she stuck around and provided rock solid irrefutable evidence that she attended school with John Salomone, what would be the harm in that? It would only be harmful if the VicSim theory is advanced as one that is predicated on the fact every single one of the alleged deaths were Sims.
If the only ammunition that the "shills" have to counter the VicSim research is that one (or a few) of the thousands of alleged VicSims actually lived and attended University in the 1980's then I would say that the VicSim theory has been validated, not repudiated. If the majority of the alleged vics were actually drawn from real flesh and blood, we should seen dozens, if not hundreds, of school mates, former team mates, co-workers, etc. appearing here to "prove" their acquaintance actually existed.
There is someone going around claiming to be John Salomone`s wife that is heading up 911 foundations. We (here) all know that John Salomone did NOT perish in the towers on 911. What we don’t know is why they used his name, his identity, to be one of their chosen Vics. I believe that whatever harm BBS could have done by “exposing” the fact that she went to school with some guy named John Salomone would have been far outweighed by the chance that we could have uncovered some connection between him and the handful of other human fake vics that were chosen to play the parts of victims.
What I am trying to saying is that in my opinion the VicSim research is fantastic, BECAUSE it can by elimination lead to identifying the handful of Vics that were taken from “real” flesh and blood. Finding those Vics, those that had to be involved in some way with the plot (by virtue of their having faked their deaths), and discovering any common thread between them may lead to we will get one step closer to finding the perps. On the other hand, by dogmatically refusing to consider that any of the thousands of the alleged Vics were in fact drawn from real people, we are no closer to uncovering anything that we don`t already know.
If we made an analogy between this forum and a courtroom, we would want the perps to step up and testify so that they could be questioned and cross examined. Calling them liars, perps, and shills, and chasing them away, EVEN IF they are liars, in my opinion, does not bring any benefit to the Forum. Their demeanor and behavior will make it easy for everyone to see if they are legit, or not.
This, hopefully, will be my last post on this issue and in conclusion, this is how I see it:
Logically, there are only two credible scenarios. One has to either accept that ALL of the almost 3,000 Vics were fabricated Sims that never existed, OR if not, only MOST of them were. Believing that ALL were computer generated is a dead end in my opinion. Believing that some of the Vics were in fact perps who faked their death and were a part of the scheme is an opening to take the research to the next level. As the detective`s say “follow the money”. It is the Vics families who received compensation. Where did that money go? How much did Mrs. Salomone receive? Eliminate the obvious CGI Sims, look at the handful (I would start with those that have “vociferous” family members) and try to find some common threads between them, and their back stories. What schools they and their spouses attended, where they were born, are the spouses remarried, etc, etc? It is my humble opinion that taking the VicSim research to the next level requires investigation and the exploration of the identities that were chosen. If Hoi and others are satisfied to let the VicSim theory stand as is, they have earned the right. Simon, Hoi, and other researchers here have done more than anyone should expect. I, for one, am forever grateful for having learned the “truth” about the media fakery and I would not have discovered it without the research found here. I wish I had the time, energy and intelligence to have uncovered for myself even one percent of the truth and knowledge I have learned on these pages.
I am off to reread ,and re-examine the entire 80 page VicSim report one more time. I wish you all the best, and I hope that no one takes any offense with what I have written.