Fake "Fake News"?

The most common objection people have to our research: "Too many people would have been involved to pull off such a massive hoax." Well, with trillions of taxpayers' dollars at hand, this operation could certainly afford contracting many individuals (under a gag order and on a need-to-know basis). Meet the real - and unreal - persons, companies & entities assigned to carry out this gigantic, media & military-assisted psyop.

Re: Fake "Fake News"?

Postby HonestlyNow on December 27th, 2011, 2:04 am

I honestly don't see the problem with advocating the use of technology and science as the main guide to our lives.
(emphasis added)

As in, using technology to provide your values, to tell you what actions to take? How does that work?
As best I can, I use my reason and my consciousness of reality to guide my life. That is, I do my best to think for myself. I choose my own values, not the hand-me-down values of the media or society.
I just don't see how technology or science can do your thinking and choosing for you.

And religion is nothing more than letting other people tell you how you should live your life, that is, allowing other people to do your thinking for you.
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Re: Fake "Fake News"?

Postby Dcopymope on December 27th, 2011, 3:07 am

HonestlyNow wrote:
I honestly don't see the problem with advocating the use of technology and science as the main guide to our lives.
(emphasis added)

As in, using technology to provide your values, to tell you what actions to take? How does that work?
As best I can, I use my reason and my consciousness of reality to guide my life. That is, I do my best to think for myself. I choose my own values, not the hand-me-down values of the media or society.
I just don't see how technology or science can do your thinking and choosing for you.

And religion is nothing more than letting other people tell you how you should live your life, that is, allowing other people to do your thinking for you.


Bingo, you summed up what I was saying in a few words. Religion is letting a group of "experts" to do your reasoning and thinking for you, that is 'science' today, they just wear white coats instead of black coats, just the other cheek of the same ass.
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Re: Fake "Fake News"?

Postby brianv on December 27th, 2011, 5:22 am

"Well, why would he not be? If you claim he is not real, you should be able to prove it."

I have my suspicions he is not real! I have made no claims! This is based based on a really simmy interview I saw! You claim he is real, you prove it!!

Didn't the Nazi movement make the same claims for technology and science being their guiding light?

And back to your "succesful movements" for a moment.

It could be argued that Civil Rights Movements made all slaves equal!

The Anti War Movement has never stopped a War!

The Hippy Movement's "World of Peace and Love" has been flushed down the toilet like so many Californian Sunshines during a police raid! The ironing is delicious!

Is your cousin claiming to be the new Messiah? Is Peter Joseph from Guatemala?
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Re: Fake "Fake News"?

Postby daozen on December 27th, 2011, 6:26 am

HonestlyNow wrote:
I honestly don't see the problem with advocating the use of technology and science as the main guide to our lives.
(emphasis added)

As in, using technology to provide your values, to tell you what actions to take? How does that work?
As best I can, I use my reason and my consciousness of reality to guide my life. That is, I do my best to think for myself. I choose my own values, not the hand-me-down values of the media or society.
I just don't see how technology or science can do your thinking and choosing for you.

And religion is nothing more than letting other people tell you how you should live your life, that is, allowing other people to do your thinking for you.


Well, we are all a result of our environment, we all come into a culture that conditions our values, like it or not, through our families and peers atleast until we start to think for ourselves, which is something that happens seldomly. Some of us are lucky enough to see through the lies and deception but most don't and it's because we as a, like it or not, now global community don't have science and reason as values in our culture, but consumerism and an adoration of status and wealth. We are conditioned to compete with each other and that has naturally formed a hierarchical society where those at the very top can get to a point where they dupe the world with cgi bs.

I agree science shouldn't do your thinking and choosing for you, but mainly because it can't. Science is nothing but a tool, it has no moral and will never tell you what to do. Does a knife tell you how to cut a cake? Governments, which are mainly instruments the elite use in order to mantain power, on the other hand do tell you what to do and don't. Science and an abolition of governments can only allow us more freedom.

On the other hand humans are a social animal, like it or not, and depend on our community for our survival and well being. This day in age our community is global, countries and races are superficial divisions. We all need clean water, food and shelter, regardless of your values, and having the technology we have it's quite absurd that a billion people or something like that, struggle with hunger, besides the fact that most people in the world are being explotied in one way or another.

Lastly, I want to make clear I'm defending science not TZM. TZM claims they persue a society that's designed based on science, and that's debatable but unless proven otherwise I believe they are genuine. To say they are going for a world where "some tell other what to do" (as in our current world of governments)is a misunderstanding of the movement. We need to think as a holistic community if we want to survive because that is what we are and to keep thinking the way it's going today instead of with a scientific and rational fashion is a mistake imo, no?
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Re: Fake "Fake News"?

Postby daozen on December 27th, 2011, 6:32 am

Dcopymope wrote:
HonestlyNow wrote:
I honestly don't see the problem with advocating the use of technology and science as the main guide to our lives.
(emphasis added)

As in, using technology to provide your values, to tell you what actions to take? How does that work?
As best I can, I use my reason and my consciousness of reality to guide my life. That is, I do my best to think for myself. I choose my own values, not the hand-me-down values of the media or society.
I just don't see how technology or science can do your thinking and choosing for you.

And religion is nothing more than letting other people tell you how you should live your life, that is, allowing other people to do your thinking for you.


Bingo, you summed up what I was saying in a few words. Religion is letting a group of "experts" to do your reasoning and thinking for you, that is 'science' today, they just wear white coats instead of black coats, just the other cheek of the same ass.


ALL of them? not a single honest scientist in the world? That is what "scientists" become in a world where everyone depends on the money they squeeze out of others, where doctors become doctors because of what they will earn. No one is born "evil" and the "science" you describe is not what I advocate. If someone tells you only he can understand something and you can't he is not a scientist is he? I'm not advocating governments switch the suit for the coat.
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Re: Fake "Fake News"?

Postby daozen on December 27th, 2011, 6:36 am

I don't mind disagreement with my stance on what I would like our world to move into, but I do want to see the claims of "fakeness" be backed by evidence. I'm starting to think those claims come from nowhere but the disagreement itself though.
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Re: Fake "Fake News"?

Postby daozen on December 27th, 2011, 6:47 am

brianv wrote:"Well, why would he not be? If you claim he is not real, you should be able to prove it."

I have my suspicions he is not real! I have made no claims! This is based based on a really simmy interview I saw! You claim he is real, you prove it!!

Didn't the Nazi movement make the same claims for technology and science being their guiding light?

And back to your "succesful movements" for a moment.

It could be argued that Civil Rights Movements made all slaves equal!

The Anti War Movement has never stopped a War!

The Hippy Movement's "World of Peace and Love" has been flushed down the toilet like so many Californian Sunshines during a police raid! The ironing is delicious!

Is your cousin claiming to be the new Messiah? Is Peter Joseph from Guatemala?


Well, Hoi was the one to claim that sorry. But how do you prove someone else is indeed real? If I where to say Simon Shack is a sim wouldn't I be responsible for proving it?

Maybe you could atleast tell my what you base your suspicions he is not real, I don't care either way and as I've said, I'm open to anything but only as long as there's evidence. What interview would that be and what about it?

Nazi's? maybe they did? but so what? didn't Michael Moore claim the truth on 9/11. It's not who says it, it's if what is said is really done.

Those movements might have not erradicated what they where against but to say it did no good is absurd. The abolishon of slavery sounds like an improvement to me, atleast slightly. The other movements did much more good than if no one would have cared, no? Anyway, I have no idea how I got to defending the concept of movement, :huh: :lol:

Now, if you claim PJ claims to be a Messiah in any way, please back it up! ...and why ask if he's from Guatemala, how is that relevant?
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Re: Fake "Fake News"?

Postby brianv on December 27th, 2011, 7:04 am

"The abolishon of slavery sounds like an improvement to me" -- The Slave Owners were vastly compensated by the King, millions was forked out! What a jolly wheeze that was! The "Slaves" you refer to have never been compensated! The slaves I was talking about are the modern day wage/mortgage/bank slaves! There are none so enslaved as those who dont realise it!

I'm claiming nothing! Who is the one advocating a "way of life", and where have I heard that before? Why doesn't he just fuck off and mind his own business instead of leading people up the garden path with his metropolis bullshit?

Who is Michael Moore and what the fuck has he got to do with anything?
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Re: Fake "Fake News"?

Postby Dcopymope on December 27th, 2011, 12:20 pm

daozen wrote:ALL of them? not a single honest scientist in the world? That is what "scientists" become in a world where everyone depends on the money they squeeze out of others, where doctors become doctors because of what they will earn. No one is born "evil" and the "science" you describe is not what I advocate. If someone tells you only he can understand something and you can't he is not a scientist is he?


Yes that does make him a scientist actually. They make a "discovery", if you even want to believe that, or they witness a phenomenon and they make up their own language to "explain" it in a way that only their little group can truly understand it unless you are scientist, that is a religion by principle.

daozen wrote:I'm not advocating governments switch the suit for the coat.


:rolleyes: As if they havent already. Whats happening right now is Governments switching from one religion to another to use as justification for whatever political objectives they plan on carrying out, often based on outright scams of course, anthropogenic global warming being one of them.
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Re: Fake "Fake News"?

Postby daozen on December 27th, 2011, 5:13 pm

brianv wrote:"The abolishon of slavery sounds like an improvement to me" -- The Slave Owners were vastly compensated by the King, millions was forked out! What a jolly wheeze that was! The "Slaves" you refer to have never been compensated! The slaves I was talking about are the modern day wage/mortgage/bank slaves! There are none so enslaved as those who dont realise it!


Well, if you think the civil rights movement never brought any good to anyone that's fine, I don't care.

I'm claiming nothing! Who is the one advocating a "way of life", and where have I heard that before? Why doesn't he just fuck off and mind his own business instead of leading people up the garden path with his metropolis bullshit?


I don't know where have you heard that before? Well, he's probably concerned about the dire condition and tendency of his well being and that of others. I don't know where you get this from "leading people up the garden path"

I don't see how everyone can just mind their own business and have it all work out for everyone when as I've said the human animal depends on his community... look around... is it working?

If you don't claim anything what is this all about...? "Is your cousin claiming to be the new Messiah? Is Peter Joseph from Guatemala?"

Who is Michael Moore and what the fuck has he got to do with anything?


The reason I mention him is because you said "Didn't the Nazi movement make the same claims for technology and science being their guiding light? "

To say that just because someone else has claimed something before doesn't mean anyone who claims that after him is going to have a hidden agenda, that is a logical fallacy.

Just because Michael Moore came out with a documentary claiming the truth about 9/11 doesn't mean something like September Clues is going to be false just because someone before it had a hidden agenda?
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Re: Fake "Fake News"?

Postby daozen on December 27th, 2011, 5:25 pm

Dcopymope wrote:
daozen wrote:ALL of them? not a single honest scientist in the world? That is what "scientists" become in a world where everyone depends on the money they squeeze out of others, where doctors become doctors because of what they will earn. No one is born "evil" and the "science" you describe is not what I advocate. If someone tells you only he can understand something and you can't he is not a scientist is he?


Yes that does make him a scientist actually. They make a "discovery", if you even want to believe that, or they witness a phenomenon and they make up their own language to "explain" it in a way that only their little group can truly understand it unless you are scientist, that is a religion by principle.


No it doesn't, not by definition. That may be what our culture percieves as a scientist these days but a scientist is nothing but someone who uses the tool the scientific method is. It has nothing to do with...

"they make up their own language to "explain" it in a way that only their little group can truly understand it unless you are scientist"

If this is not a generalization and a fallacy I don't know what is.

daozen wrote:I'm not advocating governments switch the suit for the coat.


:rolleyes: As if they havent already. Whats happening right now is Governments switching from one religion to another to use as justification for whatever political objectives they plan on carrying out, often based on outright scams of course, anthropogenic global warming being one of them.


The reason I said this was to try to explain what I said above, white coats don't make scientist even if it's percieved that way. Yeah, all goverments are corrupt but that has nothing to do with science.
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Re: Fake "Fake News"?

Postby HonestlyNow on December 27th, 2011, 7:01 pm

daozen wrote:We all need clean water, food and shelter, regardless of your values, . . .


A note on what a value is. As defined by Ayn Rand, a value is that which one acts to gain and keep. Virtue is the action by which one gains and keeps it.

If you are acting to gain and/or keep clean water, food and shelter, then those are some of your values.

Quoting Ayn Rand from The Ayn Rand Lexicon
Values are the motivating power of man's actions and a necessity of his survival, psychologically as well as physically. (pg. 522)


It is not the special sciences that teach man to think; it is philosophy that lays down the epistemological criteria of all special sciences.(pg. 436)


Epistemology is a science devoted to the discovery of the proper methods of acquiring and validating knowledge.(pg. 148)


Philosophy is a necessity for a rational being: philosoply is the foundation of science, the organizer of man's mind, the integrator of his knowledge, the programmer of his subconscious, the selector of his values.(pg. 360)


The men who are not interested in philosophy need it most urgently: they are most helplessly in its power.
The men who are not interested in philosophy absorb its principles from the cultural atmosphere around them--from schools, colleges, books, magazines, newspapers, movies, television, etc. Who sets the tone of a culture? A small handful of men: the philosophers. Others follow their lead, either by conviction or by default.(pg. 359)


The present state of the world is not the proof of philosophy's impotence, but the proof of philosophy's power. It is philosophy that has brought men to this state--it is only philosophy that can lead them out.(pg. 360)
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Re: Fake "Fake News"?

Postby daozen on December 27th, 2011, 7:49 pm

HonestlyNow wrote:
daozen wrote:We all need clean water, food and shelter, regardless of your values, . . .


A note on what a value is. As defined by Ayn Rand, a value is that which one acts to gain and keep. Virtue is the action by which one gains and keeps it.


As defined by Ayn Rand indeed. Unfortunately she didn't have all the answers, she is one of many who have defined a value, not that I'm against this particular one entirely but just pointing that out. Capitalism loves Rand's objectivism as she helps justify the system, a selfish system that fails to acknoledge the communal nature of human beings, depends on endless consumption, allows hierarchies to develope a section of people with overwhelming power over others, and has devastating effects on the environment, hence our selves.

"Objectivism is a philosophy created by the Russian-American philosopher and novelist Ayn Rand (1905–1982). Objectivism's central tenets are that reality exists independent of consciousness, that human beings have direct contact with reality through sense perception, that one can attain objective knowledge from perception through the process of concept formation and inductive logic, that the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness (or rational self-interest), that the only social system consistent with this morality is full respect for individual rights embodied in laissez faire capitalism..."

If you are acting to gain and/or keep clean water, food and shelter, then those are some of your values.


Well more than values they are requirements for life. I guess I value life then, but it's hard for me to think anyone would not...? or atleast hope that most people do, and even should dare I say it.

Quoting Ayn Rand from The Ayn Rand Lexicon
Values are the motivating power of man's actions and a necessity of his survival, psychologically as well as physically. (pg. 522)


It is not the special sciences that teach man to think; it is philosophy that lays down the epistemological criteria of all special sciences.(pg. 436)


Epistemology is a science devoted to the discovery of the proper methods of acquiring and validating knowledge.(pg. 148)


Philosophy is a necessity for a rational being: philosoply is the foundation of science, the organizer of man's mind, the integrator of his knowledge, the programmer of his subconscious, the selector of his values.(pg. 360)


The men who are not interested in philosophy need it most urgently: they are most helplessly in its power.
The men who are not interested in philosophy absorb its principles from the cultural atmosphere around them--from schools, colleges, books, magazines, newspapers, movies, television, etc. Who sets the tone of a culture? A small handful of men: the philosophers. Others follow their lead, either by conviction or by default.(pg. 359)


The present state of the world is not the proof of philosophy's impotence, but the proof of philosophy's power. It is philosophy that has brought men to this state--it is only philosophy that can lead them out.(pg. 360)


I'd say I agree with all these quotes atually... but why did you post them?

It seems this thread has derailed a bit maybe....
Last edited by daozen on December 27th, 2011, 7:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fake "Fake News"?

Postby HonestlyNow on December 28th, 2011, 12:31 am

I like Rand's writings because she gets to the core of the issue. Powerful words that make sense. Is she
perfect? Of course not.

daozen wrote:Capitalism loves Rand's objectivism as she helps justify the system, a selfish system that fails to acknoledge the communal nature of human beings, depends on endless consumption, allows hierarchies to develope a section of people with overwhelming power over others, and has devastating effects on the environment, hence our selves.


How are you defining capitalism, then?

"Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned."
-- A.Rand

The so-called "capitalism" we are experiencing is mixed in with state controls ad nauseum. Our current system gives capitalism a bad name, it is not true laissez-faire capitalism. Such an animal, we have yet to experience. Heck, we can't even own our own means of exchange i.e. money, without the state getting involved.

Where does a system based on true individual rights disallow people from being social and being benevolent (as I infer from your characterization of man having a "communal nature"), where all actions and agreements between people are voluntary in nature, and those that are not, would not be tolerated. This would, of course, necessitate a certain number of persons in said society to hold a proper rational philosophy to keep any thugs in their place, hence the importance of philosophy.

Now, if by "communal nature", you're saying that the proper social system should be communism/socialism/altruism . . . which all say that man does not exist for his own sake, but for the sake of others. Others have hold over your life. You have a hold over another's life. By what standards? How does one decide what is owed and what can be taken from another? Is this life, or anti-life? Can a system as such be voluntary, and stay voluntary? Once it's not voluntary, then are you saying that the initiation of force is a moral action . . . because . . .why? Because the individual owes his life to the greater good.

Sorry, that doesn't work for me.
-----
I realize that this is all off-topic.
There being no shortage of writing on this all important subject, and me not being a professor of same, and no end of arguments between the theories of differing social systems, I will now leave you to your own research and thinking on this matter.

Peace.
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Re: Fake "Fake News"?

Postby whatsgoingon on December 28th, 2011, 5:57 am

4
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