FOIA Request for 9/11 Flight Envelopes

All other news and developments related to 9/11

Postby fred on October 22nd, 2010, 5:01 pm

I'm trying to imagine the bureaucrat's desk piled high with three weeks of unopened mail. Or else maybe he's been sitting there for the last three weeks thinking "uh-oh, what excuse can I give this time?"

You would think he would just put the USB stick in his computer, attach the hard drive, copy and paste and be done with it.

I'll be curious as to how he responds and what the "normal" turnaround time is for these things.
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Postby hoi.polloi on October 23rd, 2010, 3:07 am

Well, if we are to judge at all based on their first response, it is apparently 1 year before any sort of written message can get printed and put in an envelope.

So copying a hard drive - even if a blank hard drive and the envelope are provided? Uhh, let's see ... 100 years. Approximately.
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Re: FOIA Request For 9/11 Flight Envelopes

Postby hoi.polloi on November 19th, 2010, 8:58 pm

Just got off the phone with Mister Paynter of the National Archives. The reason I called was because I finally received a response from him in the form of TWO giant envelopes of paper - hundreds of pages of single-sided printed papers with only lists of file folders and their contents by sorted physical file - scanned into PDF format. The documents themselves, undisclosed, are something like a couple terabytes of data - blocked by this wall of paper. Nice move.

I received a written response from my appeal to the NARA chief also - boss sez David Paynter is doing a great job - no need to appeal for a different helper. All I can say is it has been the most polite Kafka-esque bureaucracy I've ever encountered. Slick and decorated in clouds of politeness.

Apparently, how the FAA archive was brought/sent to them was in the form of a series of PDF images that had been scanned. Being impossible to release electronically, as the statement sent along with it goes, this is the only available method of them to clarify my research for me ... allegedly, I guess.

Now here is where the story gets a little interesting. The FAA, if you remember - if not, you can read above - said that NARA basically came and collected all the information they wanted in regards to 9/11 because that was how it was to be organized. However, in my phone call to Mister Paynter, he said the FAA essentially sent the information and NARA acquired it because it was deemed worthy of keeping. It was difficult to tell what exactly he was saying - and I'm certain U.S. citizens are not encouraged to record phone conversations as often as their government does with them, so unfortunately you'd have to take my word on this - but he gave me the impression that his was a rather timid organization, unable to do research or perform updates of their files, and unwilling because it wasn't their job anyway. This sounds great - we should prefer they remain as purely mechanical an organization as possible, no? They simply collected information deemed by the office as 'more permanently valuable' than other information. Yet - if the FAA is saying NARA took all the files and acted a bit powerless in the matter, but NARA itself is acting like their hands are tied on what is 'important' or 'unimportant' - who is making the decision to collect what information in the first place?

He hinted at, without saying, that the buck stops at NARA.

Curious about archive.org and its relationship to the 9/11 television archives and September Clues, I was corrected that archive.org has absolutely nothing to do with NARA and that if I was seeking further investigation, I might try looking at NARA's Commission Report web site. Again.

When it comes to the case of the missing load manifests, David simply said, "Have fun reading," to which I could only laugh and reply, "Well, I am a fast reader, so I'll be sure to come up with something if anything for my next response." They offer to print me more paper, if I identify a set of images I would like to see. I asked how I was going to find whether a document existed by searching through an ambiguous list of images of the text I need, based - not on any samples or text - but on curt item descriptions and file names of the images - with no ability to look at the images that they refer to. He said he didn't know - that was the reason he printed the whole thing.

I feel this is getting to be a practical joke, but on the other hand, no - it's not a joke. I'm the only person to do this research, to even ask for this kind of information from my government, and I think that should tell something to anyone who wants to discredit our questions. We are - collectively, as Americans - a lazy people. It's taken us over nine years to simply ask the FAA for the flight load manifests. As a result, this is the government's response:

[st]Image
FIND IT YO-SELF MUTHAFUCKA[/st]

[UPDATE: I no longer have the image of the stack of papers they sent me, but it's not terribly troublesome to ask for them to print another ream, I imagine. -HP]

Surely, this is a way of trying to say, "You cannot prove we don't have the document because you don't know what all this nonsense means," but to be fair to David's official personality traits he presented to me, he said - exasperatedly - that he couldn't find anything himself and he definitely didn't know why something didn't come up if it did exist.

We really failed to stop our government from doing this to us without any checks. I am starting to think it's mostly the people's fault for being so stupid about it all - myself included. Hollywood has really messed with our imaginations on how the world works. This is how they force their way. Walls of storytelling when they've spent their collective emotional citizen-acceptance of bombs.

P.S. - Fred, they sent me the thumb drive back - unopened. <_<
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re: Hoi's FOIA NARA FAA Request

Postby fred on November 19th, 2010, 11:11 pm

The new system is not allowing me to post a reply on the appropriate thread for some reason.

I would say you are making progress. If there's 2 TB of data, and they're pdf files, that's good news because 1 TB drives are under $100.

One approach might be to break the stack of papers you received in to 3 piles (or 5, it doesn't matter so much).

Then send the the smaller stack (1/3 of the deck) and request all of the pdf files be transfered onto your 1TB drive.

You could repeat that 3 times and have the whole set of documents.

Another approach is flip through the stack and cherry pick say 15 interesting pages and ask that all files on that page be transfered to your USB device.

Lets say he sent you 1000 pages representing 2TB of data. 1024GB ~ 1TB, therefore you're looking at about 2 GB of scanned pdf per page in his data dump.

So, find 3 pages that look promising, and request that those be put on your USB stick while you raise a $300 for several terabyte sized drives. After you get the sample of the data set you might then request the 2 TB data set be copied over.

http://www.jr.com/product/productListin ... t=TB+drive

$89.99 gets you one 1.5 TB portable drive. Conservatively, that ought to hold the first third of the stack he sent you.

They can't really try the "we'll pay you in bags of pennies" approach because while the rent may be too damn high, storage is too damn cheap.

I still say grab it all. Send them 200 pages of their data dump and ask them to fill your 1.5 TB drive.

Anyone got $100 to buy hoi a drive and some postage stamps?

---


$89 gets + free shipping: Western Digital WDBAAU0015HBK-NESN Elements 1.5 TB USB 2.0 External Hard Drive
Simple, reliable add-on storage / Simply plug it in to a USB port and start saving your photos, music, video, and files / Turns on and off with your PC ... more info [ WD BAAU0015HBK ]
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Re: FOIA Request For 9/11 Flight Envelopes

Postby hoi.polloi on November 20th, 2010, 12:09 am

Sorry about that - you should be able to post again in 9/11 and 7/7 areas now.

Actually, the guy told me that I shouldn't expect a way to get all the information; they want me to select a few files where I think it should be and that's what they'll send me. I'd like to keep pushing but he was pretty slick on the topic - it doesn't seem they want such massive information being released at once. I expect if it was all subject to close scrutiny it wouldn't pass the smell test, but this way they can try to convince people that we don't have rightful reason to look.

I am going to try to identify the files I should be looking for. This is where their Distortion Report says there is information:

  • Something called AAL Record "Passenger Name List Flight 11/September 11", undated. Probably having to do with American Airlines.

  • Something called "UAL report", which might have to do with United Airlines' "troubled" holding company UAL.

  • And something called: UAL response to Commission questions for the record (Which is an absurd idea - that the only documentation is in some interview.)

So who are AAL and UAL? Here is some information about UAL:

Yet in 2000, UAL's fortunes began to dim. In April 2000, the ESOP investment period ended for most US employees, prompting United's unions to fight for higher wages. Labor issues, air traffic congestion and poor weather forced UAL's United unit to implement widespread flight cancellations in the summer of 2000, harming the airline's reputation. Additionally, UAL Corporation announced its intent to merge with US Airways Group, Inc., the operator of American airline US Airways. The deal collapsed in mid-2001, due to lack of support from the U.S. government and employees. Then came the tragedy of September 11. The company ended 2001 with a record loss of $2.1 billion.[4]

As losses continued in 2002, Glenn Tilton, a former Texaco CEO with experience operating a company in bankruptcy, was brought in by UAL's Board of Directors to try and prevent bankruptcy, or, if needed, successfully guide the company through a bankruptcy process. Tilton was appointed Chairman, President, and CEO of UAL Corporation and United Air Lines, Inc. in September 2002. Tilton sought wage cuts from employees and applied for a U.S. government loan guarantee to avoid filing for bankruptcy. By early December, the company had reached agreements with most of its unions for wage reductions, but its loan application was rejected Dec. 4. On Dec. 9, UAL and its subsidiaries filed for Chapter 11 reorganization. UAL quickly received debtor-in-possession (DIP) financing to allow it to continue "business as usual" while it reorganized its debt, capital and cost structures. The year ended with UAL seeking immediate voluntary wage reductions from all employee groups or permission from the bankruptcy court to impose those reductions in order to meet the strict covenants established by the DIP lenders.[4]
- wickedpedia

Now, one would presume the other holding corporation is AAL, right? Well ... maybe not. Apparently, American Airlines is actually owned by AMR Corporation, and American Airlines is only referred to as AAL when in some kind of lawful nickname. Did they sloppily put together the reference "AAL" because no such thing actually exists? I am having a hard time on this particular lead.
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Re: FOIA Request For 9/11 Flight Envelopes

Postby fred on November 20th, 2010, 1:23 am

Who cares what NARA's or Mr Paynter want? He's a public servant--a bureaucrat.

Of course he wants you to give up and go away quietly.

How much money did NARA waste scanning 2 TB of FAA documents that nobody can see?

They have the documents you want in PDF format. NARA can't be bothered to search and find you the passenger manifests you asked for, so instead they sent you 500 pages of folder titles. The only way to get the flight manifests is to get all those folders on your computer and search for it yourself.

He's got a little more than $120 worth of data at today's hard disk prices. You're a US Citizen and you have every right to that data that the taxpayers paid to have archived.

I would send him a disk drive and the first third of the stack he sent you. Ask for all those files so you can look yourself for the missing passenger manifest. You can follow-up with your Congressman and Senator if they stonewall you.

I would send a follow-up FOIA asking for the dollar amount they spent on this big scanning project and asking for Mr Paynter's duties and annual salary and the number of public employees NARA have on their payroll.

If the National Archives can't fill up a measly $89 hard drive with files of THE WORST TERRORIST ATTACK IN WORLD HISTORY, what good are they?

He can fill up your disk with documents or he can get sued and ruin his government career.

He sent you 500 pages; you can send him 200 pages back and ask for the files associated with each one. That's perfectly reasonable. Let's see what's in these files.

If the manifest you're looking for isn't in the first 200 pages, it must be in the last 300 pages.

What possible justification can they have for not providing you with the files that have ALREADY BEEN SCANNED IN TO PDF FORMAT? Tell him to stop being lazy and copy the files you need. Next stop is the GAO, the head of NARA, and your elected officials.

What could they possibly have to hide? It's not like there's some big cover-up...
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Re: FOIA Request For 9/11 Flight Envelopes

Postby hoi.polloi on November 20th, 2010, 1:35 am

Well, listen how about this - if you're a USA citizen or know a USA citizen, file another FOIA request for the entire contents. Let's get ten people all filing for them to be released.

That should speed things along rather nicely. :)
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Re: FOIA Request for 9/11 Flight Envelopes

Postby hoi.polloi on November 22nd, 2010, 9:25 pm

I have thoroughly searched the documents in possession by the FAA and found:

  • Of the non-flight control information released, no immediately apparent data about the actual day of 9/11 - it seems to be all references to post-9/11 communications and research - references to faxes, emails, timelines and conversations collected afterwards

  • Absolutely no airport documentation outside that provided by the flight control towers such as airline-to-regulation organization documents, etc.?

  • Several documents of FOIA requests by a 'Robert Morningstar' addressed after 9/11 Commission hearings

  • Potentially relevant conversations, e-mails, faxes that point to further relationship between the airports and the FAA

So I have found some relevant information to the flight load manifests - perhaps 100 files. I sent the request today and I anxiously await their response.

To fully update you, the public, during my attempts to uncover extremely relevant documentation - as is my policy - here are the latest letters I received:

[st]Response from NARA after my appeal for a better search

Image
Image



And here is the cover letter sent with the Mighty Stack of Flight Tracking Data [that may or may not be mostly a collection of employee response to simulated flight data via NORAD Eberhart's RockwellCollins virtual systems corporation]
Image[/st]

[UPDATE: For sake of completeness, though it doesn't alter my story much, sorry about missing images. -HP]
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Re: FOIA Request for 9/11 Flight Envelopes

Postby hoi.polloi on November 22nd, 2010, 10:07 pm

I also would like people to note where the law stands on passengers in the 'load manifest' issue:

Question 2: If the PIC becomes aware of an actual passenger count that differs from the manifest, must he resolve that difference before departing?

Response: Yes, to the extent that the miscount affects such safety issues as aircraft weight and balance calculations. See the discussion to Question No. 1.

For purposes of
Section 121.665, however, if the load manifest has the names of 100 passengers but the PIC notices that actually there are 110 passengers on board, then the air carrier, not the PIC, is in violation of the regulation. Likewise, if the PIC takes off and the load manifest only shows the names of 100 passengers although 110 are on board, the air carrier would be in violation of Section 121.693(e).

Question 3: If the PIC reports the discrepancy to the certificate holder prior to departure and is advised to nevertheless operate the flight by the certificate holder, may he (the PIC) do so?

Response: Since the requirements to maintain an accurate load manifest are the responsibility of the certificate holder, the PIC could not be found to be in violation of Sections 121.665 or 121.693(e) for proceeding with the flight despite inaccurate or incomplete information in the load manifest. However, the PIC might be held in violation of other regulations that apply to the pilots and that depend on
accurate passenger information, including accurate weight information. See discussion in Response to Question No. 1.

Question 4: Does the PIC have any responsibility for a passenger count discrepancy other than reporting it to the certificate holder? If so, what is the responsibility?

Response: Yes. See response to Question No. 1.

Thank you for your inquiry. We hope this has been responsive to your request. This response was prepared by Carol Moors Toth, attorney, Operations Law Branch, and coordinated with the Air Transportation Division of the Flight Standards Service.

Sincerely,

Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division


http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/hea ... ohnson.rtf

Just to be clear, it is a significant safety violation to take off without the passenger manifest. If the 9/11 airplanes were real, where is the evidence for the load manifests? I sincerely hope NARA responds to my latest message on the FOIA case.
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Re: FOIA Request for 9/11 Flight Envelopes

Postby hoi.polloi on December 10th, 2010, 1:10 am

It has been noted that the four apparently fictional flights were composed of the unlikely number sequence honoring some kind of sanctity for the "11" number:

11....11
93....9+3=12
175...1+7+5=13
77....7+7=14

...but did you know that the official take-off time ranges for these flights are - chronologically - in that very order?

AA11 @ 7:45 - 7:59
UA93 @ 7:xx - 8:01
UA175 @ x:xx - 8:14
AA77 @ x:xx - 8:20

11 - 12 - 13 - 14
HOW CONTRIVED CAN YOU GET?

It is extremely bad if a company doesn't answer the FAA requirement for a manifest for each and every flight. It is "more than frowned upon" according to my conversation with an FAA official. Combined with the idea that these very alleged flights somehow got into an accident that is supposed to have had weight play an integral part of the accident story (thin aluminum inexplicably barging through thick steel structures) the companies responsible would have to face some kind of negligence fees beyond any previously known. American Airlines and United Airlines would have to have copies of the manifests that the FAA don't. If not them, the NTSB.

However - a single office - NARA - collected all the 9/11 data in the country according to the FAA.

The facts that NARA cannot turn up any documents of the load manifests in the FAA, and that they don't have any 9/11 documents for American Airlines or United Airlines, and that they seem to be strongly delaying their response to my FOIA for the documents in the FAA archive that can lead to more clues ... all tell me there are no such documents in existence unless they are amongst the government Commission documents not subject to FOIA.

If they are in the government Commission documents, then why does the Commission cite four wildly varied sources other than flight manifests for their numbers?

Official Commission References For Passenger Numbers
  • AAL Record "Passenger Name List Flight 11/September 11", undated.
  • FAA report, "Executive Summary Chronology of a Multiple Hijacking Crisis, September 11, 2001," September 17, 2001; UAL report, Flight 175, Flight Data Recap; UAL response to Commission questions for the record, May 13, 2004.
  • email response from Christopher R. Christensen to Commission questions for the record, January 20, 2004.
  • UAL response to Commission questions for the record, April 5, 2004.

And why do the lists of supposed dead fail to produce consistent numbers? Of any of the names listed as passengers, why do their pictures resemble computer generated, fictional persons and why do only four of the names attached to such poor simulations of people actually connect to a Social Security number in the SSDI?

And why were all the videos of the airplane crashes FAKED - and faked so many times and from so many 3-D angles that the number of proffered chance videographers boggles the imagination? (Not to mention each and every one of their amazingly coincidental connections to the professional media world that is saturated with special effects.)

It is easy to assume from all this that such magical, bureaucracy-dodging airplanes with overly insistent videos of impossible physics and fuzzy, nebulous passengers that don't even take up the capacity of the airplane models alleged to be those that crashed ... mean to tell us
THE "HIJACKED" 9/11 AIRPLANES AND THEIR PASSENGERS ARE ENTIRELY FICTIONAL AND BARELY EXIST ON PAPER.

Now, ask yourself: why exactly would there have to be a vast international conspiracy to tell us all this after it took us 9 years to deduce? Those are some pretty ballsy psychic perps if we were "meant" to figure this out as some have alleged!
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Re: FOIA Request for 9/11 Flight Envelopes

Postby brianv on December 10th, 2010, 1:43 am

I think I bumped into Christ Christ previously....

http://www.condonlaw.com/att_christensen.htm
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Re: FOIA Request for 9/11 Flight Envelopes

Postby hoi.polloi on December 10th, 2010, 4:29 am

Dear Mister Christensen,

I am researching the alleged flights of 9/11 and I noticed your name in the U.S.A. government's Commission's findings as a name interviewed to get passenger information. Would you be willing to let me ask some questions about your experience with the Commission?

I am specifically trying to locate the flight load manifests that should have been filled out for the American Airlines and United Airlines aircraft that were apparently hijacked on that day. It may be of utmost national importance that the public finds these documents and any leads you could provide would be most beneficial to the United States citizenry, its government and the world at large.

Thank you for any response!
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Re: FOIA Request for 9/11 Flight Envelopes

Postby hoi.polloi on December 15th, 2010, 4:42 am

NARA has responded to my FOIA request. They are compiling material but say they cannot wave the processing fee because they don't feel anyone's life is in immediate danger.

I don't suppose they count innocent Middle Eastern women and children as valuable life. It is clearly meant as an insult to peace lovers everywhere that my reason for investigating these topics - which I made explicitly clear was to identify traitorous factions within our government who are goosestepping with the war profiteers instead of serving the democratic system erected by the people - is dismissed as reason enough to waive the processing fees.

No life in danger, NARA? You mean, our brave men and women serving abroad in foreign wars of aggression with no strategic advantage to the United States and too much loss of life already? Our very soldiers are not valuable life? NARA - DO YOU NOT SUPPORT OUR TROOPS?

In my opinion, this is just cowardly bureaucracy afraid of their own people finding the truth and not an intelligent decision based on their own policy. It seems strongly that they care more about denying me my right to these documents to preserve American democracy and save lives from errant wars ... than they care about doing their job the way they themselves describe their own position. However, my only recourse - accorded in the letter - is to write that I feel I have been "denied" - a rather ridiculous "option" they have given - and/or wait for some extortionist price tag they would charge for these documents - documents that may amount to nothing that points to the flight manifests or anything I am seeking. Documents that may be useless paperwork left in the publicly accessible government archive so that no FOIA will ever release actually meaningful data.

To make matters more ridiculous, though I have been pursuing every avenue offered, the FAA claims the manifests should exist in a government archive related explicitly to 9/11. The trouble is, there are only two archives - the NARA files and the Commission Report.

If the NARA files do not contain any evidence of the load manifests, the only option for the public is to demand the entirety of the files of the Commission be released to the American public by special action. Pretty soon, we may have a very good case for millions of Americans to write their representatives to demand release of the Commission files. The case is already strong enough, but depending on what the FOIA provides, it may get even more obvious the time for this kind of grassroots movement is needed. I hope to uncover something of real documentary value on the 9/11 airplanes issue. The outlook is not great.
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Re: FOIA Request for 9/11 Flight Envelopes

Postby hoi.polloi on January 28th, 2011, 5:19 pm

Still waiting for that list with an exorbitant pricetag they promised me. Well, NARA?
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Re: FOIA Request for 9/11 Flight Envelopes

Postby hoi.polloi on March 11th, 2011, 4:37 am

Still waiting for some kind of response ...
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