Tunis Bardo museum shooting, 18 March 2015

Anything on the news and elsewhere in the media with evidence of digital manipulation, bogus story-lines and propaganda

Re: Tunis Bardo museum shooting, 18 March 2015

Postby hoi.polloi on March 20th, 2015, 6:10 am

I think we should remember the principle that if one aspect of the story is photoshopped and fabricated, it is "controlled" and that makes it quite fake from the "alarmist" position of the media. In that sense, it is fake simply because, as nonhocapito rightly shows, there is some photoslop skullduggery going on with the images.

Therefore, it is wrong to call the alleged event "real", and misleading to call the alleged event "fake" and perfectly reasonable to define the story as fake or bullshit or even, in case of extreme disconnects, "nonsense". Although you are from perhaps the very region of the "event", let us try to orient readers to the careful language we have developed here. And also we should bear in mind that often the fabricated/staged ("fake" even) non-events or pseudo-events are better at specifically tricking the locals, so that the locals spread the word on social media that the fake images are trustworthy.

This is a very sneaky trick of the lying media.
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Re: Tunis Bardo museum shooting, 18 March 2015

Postby nonhocapito on March 20th, 2015, 9:03 am

cooler1021 wrote:Forget the tourist sector? I as a Tunisian probably know better than you (no insult intended) how important the tourist sector is for the Tunisian economy. If it comes to the tourist sector, it doesn't even matter if this event was fake or real, the majority of people in general believe this event really happened and will think thrice before visiting Tunisia.

The funny thing is I do know a lot about our revolution. It has led to an authentic change indeed. Under Ben Ali I was not even allowed to talk about politics with my family over there, they were afraid as hell if I started a conversation regarding the government. In every single store you would find a picture of Ben Ali on the wall. You are free to believe that the revolution was fake, I have a different opinion. Not that I am very happy with all the outcoming of this revolution and all the interference of the west, but still something has been achieved and I want a bright future for the country. And again just to be clear, I am NOT saying there is no way that this was a fake and staged event. I think it is too early to tell, more research has to be done in my opinion


This change you describe brought on by the Tunisian revolution seems like a good thing. I really hope it is, and that it can hold on to any assault. However, there is also the possibility that the revolution is being used within a greater design... Revolutions always look good at the beginning. Freedom is indeed a great thing. Later on, perhaps much later on, it might become apparent that the flow of money has changed direction, that the culture is being slowly but steadily transformed, that doors are being opened to transformations nobody asked for, and that there is no turning back...

As to the tourist sector: I understand the relevance of it. I'm just saying that IF this event will be linked to more events, leading to the eventual collapse of the Tunisian economy, then my second hypothesis formulated above will probably be the correct one: some rogue sector of government and media are collaborating to overturn the revolution (certainly in cahoots with foreign forces and interests).
If the event however remains isolated, hurting tourism is not really the issue: the event is not really meant to hurt society but rather to shape its feelings and its ideas. In other words making sure the change in society continues in the desired directions, and not really with the decent, just, peaceful ways most people work for.

In any case, even when it all appears to be terrifying irrational and negative, my advice is to try not to think in terms of "terrorists" who just want some form of "irrational destruction". Somewhere, behind the words and the pictures, there's a design.

Hoi is right in saying that it is more appropriate to say that the event is a "staged" rather than "fake", because naturally some evidence has to be visible all around, some sign that something big and terrible has happened: much like the Concordia staged event required a wreck.

You say that more research is needed, I couldn't agree more. Let's say that you, who are linked to this place and its culture, do some good research. We will help analyzing the evidence. If there's anything that you think "must be authentic", bring it to the forum. Often it is incredibly easy to show that what you think must be real is just a magic trick.
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Re: Tunis Bardo museum shooting, 18 March 2015

Postby cooler1021 on March 20th, 2015, 12:17 pm

nonhocapito wrote:
cooler1021 wrote:Forget the tourist sector? I as a Tunisian probably know better than you (no insult intended) how important the tourist sector is for the Tunisian economy. If it comes to the tourist sector, it doesn't even matter if this event was fake or real, the majority of people in general believe this event really happened and will think thrice before visiting Tunisia.

The funny thing is I do know a lot about our revolution. It has led to an authentic change indeed. Under Ben Ali I was not even allowed to talk about politics with my family over there, they were afraid as hell if I started a conversation regarding the government. In every single store you would find a picture of Ben Ali on the wall. You are free to believe that the revolution was fake, I have a different opinion. Not that I am very happy with all the outcoming of this revolution and all the interference of the west, but still something has been achieved and I want a bright future for the country. And again just to be clear, I am NOT saying there is no way that this was a fake and staged event. I think it is too early to tell, more research has to be done in my opinion


This change you describe brought on by the Tunisian revolution seems like a good thing. I really hope it is, and that it can hold on to any assault. However, there is also the possibility that the revolution is being used within a greater design... Revolutions always look good at the beginning. Freedom is indeed a great thing. Later on, perhaps much later on, it might become apparent that the flow of money has changed direction, that the culture is being slowly but steadily transformed, that doors are being opened to transformations nobody asked for, and that there is no turning back...

As to the tourist sector: I understand the relevance of it. I'm just saying that IF this event will be linked to more events, leading to the eventual collapse of the Tunisian economy, then my second hypothesis formulated above will probably be the correct one: some rogue sector of government and media are collaborating to overturn the revolution (certainly in cahoots with foreign forces and interests).
If the event however remains isolated, hurting tourism is not really the issue: the event is not really meant to hurt society but rather to shape its feelings and its ideas. In other words making sure the change in society continues in the desired directions, and not really with the decent, just, peaceful ways most people work for.

In any case, even when it all appears to be terrifying irrational and negative, my advice is to try not to think in terms of "terrorists" who just want some form of "irrational destruction". Somewhere, behind the words and the pictures, there's a design.

Hoi is right in saying that it is more appropriate to say that the event is a "staged" rather than "fake", because naturally some evidence has to be visible all around, some sign that something big and terrible has happened: much like the Concordia staged event required a wreck.

You say that more research is needed, I couldn't agree more. Let's say that you, who are linked to this place and its culture, do some good research. We will help analyzing the evidence. If there's anything that you think "must be authentic", bring it to the forum. Often it is incredibly easy to show that what you think must be real is just a magic trick.




Dear hoi.poloi I understand your point. By the way to call me a local would not be entirely right since I live in the Netherlands but of course I am well known with the country because I visit it a lot and also have a lot of family over there.

Thank you for your explanation nonhocapito. I do fear as well that other 'third parties' are trying to get influence into the way things are going in Tunisia (or already acted quick when the revolution just ended). Staging fake terror attacks could be a method to do that. Time will tell us.

What I do know about Tunisia and just want to share with you people is that, under the Ben Ali regime practicing Islam and especially extreme forms of it was strictly forbidden. He wanted to have the image of a 'secular western state'. This 23 years of oppression caused a soil for religious extremism after Ben Ali fled (along with financial influence from Qatar and Saudi Arabia who grabbed their chance). Unfortunately I saw Salafist groups were able to spread their hatred on the streets, there was very little social control after the revolution and that is why I was afraid a terrorist attack could occur. There have been other attacks over the last few years by the way. However lately after the forming of the government there is much more structure.
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Re: Tunis Bardo museum shooting, 18 March 2015

Postby simonshack on March 20th, 2015, 4:16 pm

cooler1021 wrote:There have been other attacks over the last few years by the way.


Indeed, dear Cooler1021, these 'Islamic terror attacks' are nothing new. They have been going on for several decades, not only in Tunisia but all over the world - and as Nonho rightly points out, they all have an air of 'familiarity' to them.

As long ago as April 11, 2002 - there was this "terror attack" on the Ghriba synagogue, on the holiday island of Djerba, Tunisia.

Image
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghriba_synagogue_bombing

Let me just take you through some old media reports of this alleged 2002 terror attack in Djerba - and see if we can find any similarities (or 'familiar traits') with this latest media-reported 'terror attack' at the Tunis Bardo museum.

So, on the day of the "Ghriba synagogue attack" (April 11, 2002), here's what we could read on this BBC article:

Blast at Tunisian synagogue kills five - BBC News, April 11, 2002

"At least five people have been killed by a powerful explosion at an ancient synagogue on the Tunisian island of Djerba. The head of the local Jewish community, Peres Taraboulsi, said: "I think it's an accident, and that it has no link to the situation in Israel". A truck filled with natural gas crashed into a wall surrounding the synagogue, he said, identifying the dead as the truck driver and four Germans."

'Bad for tourism'
"From the information that we are getting from members of the Jewish community there, we gather that it was an attack and not an accident," another Israeli foreign ministry official told BBC News Online. German tour operator TUI said 29 of its guests, who were on a bus trip to the synagogue, were injured.

"A truck full of explosives rammed into the wall of a synagogue - it's no coincidence that it was a synagogue, while everything is going on here in the Middle East," he said. It's a city of tourism - the reason the Tunisians are saying it was an accident is because they don't want to scare the tourists."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1923522.stm


So, ok: early reports talked about 'an accident' - and of 4 dead Germans" (out of a total of 5 victims). A German tour operator reported that 29 of its guests had been injured. Ok? Moreover, we are told that the reason given for this event being initially reported as an "accident" (and not a terror attack) - was because "it would be bad for tourism"...

Four days later, here's what we could read in the Telegraph:

Synagogue explosion 'no accident' - The Telegraph, April 15, 2002

"GERMAN survivors of an explosion outside a Tunisian synagogue challenged the local authorities' version of events yesterday, as the number of dead from the blast rose to 16. Two women and an 18-month-old boy died from their injuries, taking the German fatalities to 11."

"Immediately afterwards it was reported that a lorry containing gas had crashed into the outer wall of the synagogue and exploded in what the Tunisian authorities have called a "tragic accident". A nearby coach carrying German tourists took much of the force of the blast."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ident.html


So now (four days later) we had 11 German dead tourists - and a total death-toll of 16. We learn that the German victims were meant to have perished in a coach which took much of the force of the blast.

In this other (undated) Telegraph article, we can read that "AL-QAEDA admits to be behind the attack":

Al Qaeda admit Tunisian terror attack - The Telegraph (undated article)

"A known al Qaeda spokesman said in a voice recording broadcast today that the militant group was behind a deadly suicide attack at a Tunisian synagogue in April which killed 21 people, including 14 Germans."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ttack.html


So, we now have 14 German victims - and a total death-toll of 21.

This French Le MONDE article from January 5, 2009 also mentions the "final death toll of 21":
http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2 ... id=1137833

Now, let's fast-forward to what we can read on (English) Wikipedia today :

"On April 11, 2002, a natural gas truck fitted with explosives drove past security barriers at the ancient El Ghriba synagogue on the Tunisian island of Djerba. The truck detonated at the front of the synagogue, killing 14 German tourists, 3 Tunisians, and 2 French nationals. (TOTAL DEATH TOLL: 19). More than 30 others were wounded."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghriba_synagogue_bombing


So, the final total death toll has now dropped from 21 to 19. Amazing, isn't it? Does anything of this whole affair make any sense? Would it be reasonable to believe that this story could possibly happen in reality, in the real world? Or does it make more sense, perhaps, to dismiss it as a totally fabricated bullshit fable, from start to finish?
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Re: Tunis Bardo museum shooting, 18 March 2015

Postby cooler1021 on March 20th, 2015, 8:29 pm

simonshack wrote:
cooler1021 wrote:There have been other attacks over the last few years by the way.


Indeed, dear Cooler1021, these 'Islamic terror attacks' are nothing new. They have been going on for several decades, not only in Tunisia but all over the world - and as Nonho rightly points out, they all have an air of 'familiarity' to them.

As long ago as April 11, 2002 - there was this "terror attack" on the Ghriba synagogue, on the holiday island of Djerba, Tunisia.

Image
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghriba_synagogue_bombing

Let me just take you through some old media reports of this alleged 2002 terror attack in Djerba - and see if we can find any similarities (or 'familiar traits') with this latest media-reported 'terror attack' at the Tunis Bardo museum.

So, on the day of the "Ghriba synagogue attack" (April 11, 2002), here's what we could read on this BBC article:

Blast at Tunisian synagogue kills five - BBC News, April 11, 2002

"At least five people have been killed by a powerful explosion at an ancient synagogue on the Tunisian island of Djerba. The head of the local Jewish community, Peres Taraboulsi, said: "I think it's an accident, and that it has no link to the situation in Israel". A truck filled with natural gas crashed into a wall surrounding the synagogue, he said, identifying the dead as the truck driver and four Germans."

'Bad for tourism'
"From the information that we are getting from members of the Jewish community there, we gather that it was an attack and not an accident," another Israeli foreign ministry official told BBC News Online. German tour operator TUI said 29 of its guests, who were on a bus trip to the synagogue, were injured.

"A truck full of explosives rammed into the wall of a synagogue - it's no coincidence that it was a synagogue, while everything is going on here in the Middle East," he said. It's a city of tourism - the reason the Tunisians are saying it was an accident is because they don't want to scare the tourists."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1923522.stm


So, ok: early reports talked about 'an accident' - and of 4 dead Germans" (out of a total of 5 victims). A German tour operator reported that 29 of its guests had been injured. Ok? Moreover, we are told that the reason given for this event being initially reported as an "accident" (and not a terror attack) - was because "it would be bad for tourism"...

Four days later, here's what we could read in the Telegraph:

Synagogue explosion 'no accident' - The Telegraph, April 15, 2002

"GERMAN survivors of an explosion outside a Tunisian synagogue challenged the local authorities' version of events yesterday, as the number of dead from the blast rose to 16. Two women and an 18-month-old boy died from their injuries, taking the German fatalities to 11."

"Immediately afterwards it was reported that a lorry containing gas had crashed into the outer wall of the synagogue and exploded in what the Tunisian authorities have called a "tragic accident". A nearby coach carrying German tourists took much of the force of the blast."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ident.html


So now (four days later) we had 11 German dead tourists - and a total death-toll of 16. We learn that the German victims were meant to have perished in a coach which took much of the force of the blast.

In this other (undated) Telegraph article, we can read that "AL-QAEDA admits to be behind the attack":

Al Qaeda admit Tunisian terror attack - The Telegraph (undated article)

"A known al Qaeda spokesman said in a voice recording broadcast today that the militant group was behind a deadly suicide attack at a Tunisian synagogue in April which killed 21 people, including 14 Germans."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ttack.html


So, we now have 14 German victims - and a total death-toll of 21.

This French Le MONDE article from January 5, 2009 also mentions the "final death toll of 21":
http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2 ... id=1137833

Now, let's fast-forward to what we can read on (English) Wikipedia today :

"On April 11, 2002, a natural gas truck fitted with explosives drove past security barriers at the ancient El Ghriba synagogue on the Tunisian island of Djerba. The truck detonated at the front of the synagogue, killing 14 German tourists, 3 Tunisians, and 2 French nationals. (TOTAL DEATH TOLL: 19). More than 30 others were wounded."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghriba_synagogue_bombing


So, the final total death toll has now dropped from 21 to 19. Amazing, isn't it? Does anything of this whole affair make any sense? Would it be reasonable to believe that this story could possibly happen in reality, in the real world? Or does it make more sense, perhaps, to dismiss it as a totally fabricated bullshit fable, from start to finish?




Hello brother. I see what you are saying, it is indeed strange if the number of casualties is not clear after a period of time. However I have some marginal notes about your post:

The first source from BBC is from the day of the terror attack itself, and like you say in your own first post "Oh, I know... some will not find this strange - and think that of course some confusion may well occur at dramatic events such as this". Well in my opinion that could indeed be the case, I think if a real attack would occur it takes at least a few days to fully investigate it and find out the correct number of casualties.

Second: Using a Wikipedia article is fine but in fact it just uses other (news media in this case) sources to clarify itself. So it is not a self-contained source. What is interesting tough is that its source for the number of casualties as seen in the reference list is : Official Procès-Verbal, July 20th, 2002 in Tunis, El Fadel El Malki, Central Directorate of the Judicial police, The Criminal Affairs Bureau . I was not able to find this source on the internet.

My third point is: if those events are staged/faked I would assume that the number of vicsims would be adjusted beforehand. So actually I am turning the question around. In case of a fake/staged event why would there be ambiguities of the number of casualties?

By the way, actually the sentence I used "There have been other attacks over the last few years by the way" was about attacks and other events that happened after the fall of Ben Ali. For example an attack in Sousse.

Source: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/o ... tel-sousse

PS: Please don't get me wrong I am just asking questions.
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Re: Tunis Bardo museum shooting, 18 March 2015

Postby brianv on March 20th, 2015, 8:38 pm

Yes Cooler it's all real! What the fuck, it happens all the time! And we don't have 5 zillion threads already jammed and packed with all the questions to your answers. Hey, don't go and check them out - that's if you can't tear yourself away from watching September Clues on rotation. How many times is it now? 400?
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Re: Tunis Bardo museum shooting, 18 March 2015

Postby cooler1021 on March 20th, 2015, 8:56 pm

brianv wrote:Yes Cooler it's all real! What the fuck, it happens all the time! And we don't have 5 zillion threads already jammed and packed with all the questions to your answers. Hey, don't go and check them out - that's if you can't tear yourself away from watching September Clues on rotation. How many times is it now? 400?



Sorry highness that I do not know every nook and cranny of this forum and that I dared to post my thoughts. I should have read all "5 zillion threads" but thanks for your high quality contribution. ;)
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Re: Tunis Bardo museum shooting, 18 March 2015

Postby brianv on March 20th, 2015, 9:54 pm

cooler1021 wrote:
brianv wrote:Yes Cooler it's all real! What the fuck, it happens all the time! And we don't have 5 zillion threads already jammed and packed with all the questions to your answers. Hey, don't go and check them out - that's if you can't tear yourself away from watching September Clues on rotation. How many times is it now? 400?



Sorry highness that I do not know every nook and cranny of this forum and that I dared to post my thoughts. I should have read all "5 zillion threads" but thanks for your high quality contribution. ;)


Every nook and cranny? You have not read one page! So what you doing here with your "terrorist fantasies"? What the fuck? You are a nutjob plant! IMO.
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Re: Tunis Bardo museum shooting, 18 March 2015

Postby simonshack on March 20th, 2015, 10:23 pm

Brian,

I have had several Skype conversations with Cooler1021 who sounds to me - IMHO - like a sincere & well-meaning young man of Tunisian origin living in the Netherlands. I may of course be wrong about this intuitive feeling of mine - but I don't think he is a plant of any sort. Please always remember that we, here at Cluesforum, are dealing with / and unveiling things which are very hard for many people to process and digest. There really is no need to be so harsh with folks who are still scratching their heads as to the incredibly silly world we live in.

Besides, I think that people asking questions are actually quite stimulating. In this case, for instance, I spent a full morning researching that 2002 Ghirba Synagogue thing - something I would not have done without Cooler's questions. It made me even more confident that we are on the right track here at Cluesforum - calling out the countless media "terror" hoaxes sold to the public throughout the years - with fake victims and all.
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Re: Tunis Bardo museum shooting, 18 March 2015

Postby cooler1021 on March 20th, 2015, 11:00 pm

simonshack wrote:Brian,

I have had several Skype conversations with Cooler1021 who sounds to me - IMHO - like a sincere & well-meaning young man of Tunisian origin living in the Netherlands. I may of course be wrong about this intuitive feeling of mine - but I don't think he is a plant of any sort. Please always remember that we, here at Cluesforum, are dealing with / and unveiling things which are very hard for many people to process and digest. There really is no need to be so harsh with folks who are still scratching their heads as to the incredibly silly world we live in.

Besides, I think that people asking questions are actually quite stimulating. In this case, for instance, I spent a full morning researching that 2002 Ghirba Synagogue thing - something I would not have done without Cooler's questions. It made me even more confident that we are on the right track here at Cluesforum - calling out the countless media "terror" hoaxes sold to the public throughout the years - with fake victims and all.



Thank you for your words Simon. @brianv: Look I understand that I might have asked 'stupid' questions in your opinion but your approach to me is very provocative. Your accusations are based on nothing, I never said anywhere "it is all real". Also how do you know I have not read one page? It is simply not true. Your behavior and language is very childish. I don't care if people criticize me everyone has the right to do so, but the way you talk to me is provocative.
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Re: Tunis Bardo museum shooting, 18 March 2015

Postby brianv on March 20th, 2015, 11:26 pm

"I watched September Clues 200 times". Smacks of WORM to me. You have had encounters with those Simon. I stand by what I said. Perhaps he will prove me wrong...but I doubt it.

Carry on!
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Re: Tunis Bardo museum shooting, 18 March 2015

Postby cooler1021 on March 20th, 2015, 11:46 pm

brianv wrote:"I watched September Clues 200 times". Smacks of WORM to me. You have had encounters with those Simon. I stand by what I said. Perhaps he will prove me wrong...but I doubt it.

Carry on!


If you had read on a bit further in the introduction topic you would have understood that '200 times' was not meant literally, just like your 5 zillion threads is not meant literally. :D
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Re: Tunis Bardo museum shooting, 18 March 2015

Postby brianv on March 21st, 2015, 12:04 am

cooler1021 wrote:
brianv wrote:"I watched September Clues 200 times". Smacks of WORM to me. You have had encounters with those Simon. I stand by what I said. Perhaps he will prove me wrong...but I doubt it.

Carry on!


If you had read on a bit further in the introduction topic you would have understood that '200 times' was not meant literally, just like your 5 zillion threads is not meant literally. :D


Mine wasn't meant in a suck balls kind of way!

I say, your English has improved somewhat old chap.
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Re: Tunis Bardo museum shooting, 18 March 2015

Postby cooler1021 on March 21st, 2015, 12:18 am

cooler1021 wrote:
brianv wrote:
cooler1021 wrote:
brianv wrote:"I watched September Clues 200 times". Smacks of WORM to me. You have had encounters with those Simon. I stand by what I said. Perhaps he will prove me wrong...but I doubt it.

Carry on!


If you had read on a bit further in the introduction topic you would have understood that '200 times' was not meant literally, just like your 5 zillion threads is not meant literally. :D


Mine wasn't meant in a suck balls kind of way!

I say, your English has improved somewhat old chap.



Whatever dude I suggest you eat a snickers and let's get back on topic. I watch my spelling closely because a moderator asked me nicely to watch it. Thanks for your compliment old chap. ^_^
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Re: Tunis Bardo museum shooting, 18 March 2015

Postby brianv on March 21st, 2015, 12:55 am

Now you are American? I see. You will be staying to participate in our forum when this latest hoax has blown over? You joined two years ago, haven't read a post then suddenly appear when it's "your" country that gets to wear the clown's hat? You get my "drifter"? Thank god you didn't show up during the Boston marathon hoax. :puke:

Sorry for the derail mods.
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