Social Engineering

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Re: Social Engineering

Postby grav on October 27th, 2011, 4:21 pm

Dcopymope wrote:The main difference is what form of propaganda is used to mold opinions versus what is used to condition the public to react to certain stimuli or events, by creating the psychological climate for it. The latter is Hollywood's job, the former comes after the pre-propaganda phase which is direct propaganda or direct action. Basically, Hollywood's job is not necessarily to mold peoples opinions on anything.


Could we throw down some good examples of 'opinion molding' versus 'stimuli reaction' to really paint a full picture?
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Re: Social Engineering

Postby lux on October 27th, 2011, 5:54 pm

Dcopymope wrote:
The main difference is what form of propaganda is used to mold opinions versus what is used to condition the public to react to certain stimuli or events, by creating the psychological climate for it. The latter is Hollywood's job, the former comes after the pre-propaganda phase which is direct propaganda or direct action. Basically, Hollywood's job is not necessarily to mold peoples opinions on anything.



I think we're engaging in semantic nitpicking here -- now it's "molding public opinion" vs. "creating psychological climate."

I don't see a huge difference between those ideas so I don't get what your point is or why it would be worth arguing about.
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Re: Social Engineering

Postby hoi.polloi on October 27th, 2011, 9:45 pm

I think it's important to discuss these semantics but I think that's when we need to zoom in on that particular topic and suggest what is actually going on.

I am sure, based on chaos, that the number of reasons people have for manipulating others is just as diverse as our reasons for not manipulating others. Therefore, it could be that within a random selection of movies, some propaganda messages will be spread because:

1. It is the common humor of the rich/"ruling" class
2. It is a deliberate subliminal message
3. It is a subliminal message they pass on without being aware of passing it on
4. It is a blatant overarching message in the storyline
5. It is just their own personal beliefs expressed through artistic creativity that we happen to disagree with
6. It is a sinister mind-control experiment of the CIA slipped in just for the hell of it
7. They were told to put the message there by their wife or husband

Why must we limit ourselves to a single broad phenomenon? The world is complex and I suppose the reasons culture reinforces bad ideas are complex also.

We know that they can have some concerted efforts like 9/11 or the Moon Hoax but we don't know how or why those ideas are successfully branded yet. We simply know that they are.
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Re: Social Engineering

Postby Dcopymope on October 27th, 2011, 11:13 pm

grav wrote:
Dcopymope wrote:The main difference is what form of propaganda is used to mold opinions versus what is used to condition the public to react to certain stimuli or events, by creating the psychological climate for it. The latter is Hollywood's job, the former comes after the pre-propaganda phase which is direct propaganda or direct action. Basically, Hollywood's job is not necessarily to mold peoples opinions on anything.


Could we throw down some good examples of 'opinion molding' versus 'stimuli reaction' to really paint a full picture?


Well, to be more specific we should just call it what Ellul called it, pre-propaganda, and active or direct propaganda. The thousands of movies that portrayed Arabs, specifically those in the Middle East mostly as Islamic fundamentalist terrorists from Hollywood can qualify as pre-propaganda; it is the creation not of opinions but of stereotypes to get the masses ready for the 9/11 attacks, the myth, which is direct action. It is at this point that your opinions are molded using the psychological levers that have been conditioned into your sub-conscious, this is the best way I can explain it right now.
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Re: Social Engineering

Postby lux on October 28th, 2011, 12:38 am

Dcopymope wrote:
Well, to be more specific we should just call it what Ellul called it, pre-propaganda, and active or direct propaganda. The thousands of movies that portrayed Arabs, specifically those in the Middle East mostly as Islamic fundamentalist terrorists from Hollywood can qualify as pre-propaganda; it is the creation not of opinions but of stereotypes to get the masses ready for the 9/11 attacks, the myth, which is direct action. It is at this point that your opinions are molded using the psychological levers that have been conditioned into your sub-conscious, this is the best way I can explain it right now.


But, wasn't your argument that Hollywood didn't mold opinions? You've lost me. :blink:
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Re: Social Engineering

Postby Dcopymope on October 28th, 2011, 1:43 am

lux wrote:
Dcopymope wrote:
Well, to be more specific we should just call it what Ellul called it, pre-propaganda, and active or direct propaganda. The thousands of movies that portrayed Arabs, specifically those in the Middle East mostly as Islamic fundamentalist terrorists from Hollywood can qualify as pre-propaganda; it is the creation not of opinions but of stereotypes to get the masses ready for the 9/11 attacks, the myth, which is direct action. It is at this point that your opinions are molded using the psychological levers that have been conditioned into your sub-conscious, this is the best way I can explain it right now.


But, wasn't your argument that Hollywood didn't mold opinions? You've lost me. :blink:


To clarify, the 9/11 attacks classify as direct action, this is when your opinions are molded using the psychological levers, the stereotypes that was induced directly into your sub-conscious beforehand by Hollywood, which classifies as pre-propaganda. Make sense?
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Re: Social Engineering

Postby lux on October 28th, 2011, 3:36 am

^ So, you're saying that Hollywood sets the public up via stereotypes for later psy-ops which then mold public opinion?

Again we're back to semantics. A stereotype is the personification of a set of opinions, is it not?

"Terrorist are muslim." "Terrorists want to kill Americans." "Terrorists are psychotic and bloodthirsty."

Isn't a stereotype a "packaging up" of these opinions into a character? Doesn't this character then influence the viewer to have these opinions about him and, by association, anyone else who looks, acts or is in any way similar to him?

Didn't Black people protest Hollywood's stereotypical depiction of Blacks in movies because they felt it caused adverse public opinion towards them from others? Didn't Native Americans have the same complaint? Etc, etc, etc. ...?

I think we're both talking about the same things.
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Re: Social Engineering

Postby hoi.polloi on October 29th, 2011, 6:47 pm

Former Air Force cryptographer David Hagberg is a bestselling author of international thrillers who has a knack for creating fiction that becomes fact. In THE WHITE HOUSE he predicted North Korea’s development of nuclear weapons and intercontinental ballistic missiles. In JOSHUA’S HAMMER he foresaw the 9/11 attack on the United States by bin Laden and his al-Quaeda, in DESERT FIRE Saddam Hussein’s nuclear ambitions, in HIGH FLIGHT the downing of airliners as a method of terrorism on a massive scale.


Image

http://www.david-hagberg.com/biography.html

"Former" Air Force indeed! I wonder who keeps giving him his "information"? Or is he just inspiring the fiction they eventually turn into propaganda campaigns? He doesn't mention that the story about Usama bin Laden and his al-Quaeda was written a year before 9/11.
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Re: Social Engineering

Postby pov603 on October 30th, 2011, 11:23 am

When you also realise the millions of dollars that are spent on 'product placement' eg VW cars/Seiko [?] watches in James Bond movies etc it isn't too much to think about how much 'propaganda placement' is used as well.
The fact that not many people 'notice' the product placement until probably after they have bought the thing and someone else comments on it happening, shows you how powerful a tool it is and can be.
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