THE DERAILING ROOM

A place to relax and socialize - to muse, think aloud and suggest
simonshack
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Unread post by simonshack »

Flabbergasted wrote: It´s diplomatic on your part to spread things out like that, but the terminology confounds "tribal affiliation" with nationality. For example, Zbigniew Brzezinski was born and raised in Warsaw, but classifying him as a "PPM" misses the entire point of the discussion.

Brzezinski is not "a Jewish Pole", but "a Polish Jew". Makes all the difference.
Hmm, you're quite right - it's a bit of a thorny problem. I'm at a loss at how to get around it though. Any suggestions?
As for Brzezinski in particular, I suppose "POS" would be fairly appropriate. I'm such a diplomat! ^_^

Choose your favorite "POS" meaning (in relation to Brzezinski) : http://www.abbreviations.com/POS
jumpy64
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Unread post by jumpy64 »

Flabbergasted wrote:
jumpy64 wrote:I feel challenged both by its length and its format [...] could you please point me more exactly to the section that deals with the positive, religious understanding of being a "chosen people"?
Heavens, how hard is it to find an entire section intitled "The Chosen People" (pp. 17-18) in a document consisting of 20 page-scans in coffee table book format?
jumpy64 wrote:I also found Huston Smith's biography a bit questionable...
I am fully aware of the usual damning connections attributed to the author, and I am myself quite apprehensive about his championing of entheogens during part of his life, but sometimes it's wise to defer character judgments and allow yourself an open-minded first-hand impression of a writer's mind and style.
I know Flabbergasted is your forum name, but now, after reading the section of Huston Smith's book "The World's Religions" that you suggested (and also the last one titled "Israel"), I must say I'm a bit flabbergasted myself. :blink:

I remember you saying, on the first page of this thread, that you were linking to it "for the sake of information, not as an endorsement", so I'm sure you won't take personally what I'm going to say about it. Probably you will even agree with me, having "very little affinity with the 'spiritual economy' of Judaism", as you said.

As I agree with you on the fact that "it is as positive a look on Judaism as one could reasonably demand" (I'm quoting your words again).

Indeed! What the author says about Jews considering themselves "the Chosen People" is very nice and even poetic, but does it have any bearing with what we can observe in reality? I'm transcribing here some passages I have highlighted, with my comments below when needed.
They were chosen to serve, and to suffer the trials that service would often exact.
Of course the author refers to the Jews. And he clearly implies that they were chosen to serve the rest of the world, so that includes the goyim, I guess.

Funny how this conflicts with statements in the Talmud like the following: "Even though God created the non-Jew, they are still animals in human form. It is not becoming for a Jew to be served by an animal. Therefore he will be served by animals in human form." - Midrasch Talpioth, p. 255, Warsaw 1855

Maybe Smith, who's not a Jew, doesn't know much about the Talmud, since he defines it as just “a vast compendium of history, law, folklore, and commentary that is the basis of post-biblical Judaism”.

Anyway, among the comments the author makes about the religious group he's talking about, I couldn't find one that was less than flattering. They might be truthful, I don't know, but maybe the author should have substantiated them with at least a few examples.

Like when he says that "their election imposed on them a far more demanding morality than was exacted of their peers", that they had to "shoulder a suffering that would otherwise have had to be distributed more widely", or that "they were singled out for a special role in the redemption of the world".

Another quote from Smith's section on "The Chosen People":
Through the three thousand years that have followed [their liberation from slavery] they have continued their existence in the face of unbelievable odds and adversity, and have contributed to civilization out of all proportion to their numbers. Even objective assessment must grant that the Jews have been unique. Their rise as much as their continuance, historians generally agree, is rationally inexplicable.

If that is the case, there are two possibilities. Either the credit belongs to the Jews themselves, or it belongs to God. Given this alternative, the Jews instinctively turned the credit Godward.
And then Smith continues:
One of the striking features of this people has been their persistent refusal to see anything innately special about themselves as human beings. So the specialness of the Jewish experience must have derived from God.
Well, if that was really the case, they must have taken it on board at a certain point, because it can't be said that we don't hear about the specialness of Jews very often. The Talmud is all about Jewish superiority, and even the Bible goes a bit in that direction, it seems. Maybe it's just God who's insisting... :unsure:

Then Smith goes on, unabashed
Choseness, a concept that appears at first to be arrogant, turns out to be the humblest interpretation the Jews could give to the facts of their origin, survival, and exceptional contributions to civilization.

Today Jewish opinion is divided on the doctrine of the election. Some Jews believe that it has outgrown whatever usefulness or objective validity it may have had in Biblical times. Other Jews believe that until the world’s redemption is complete, God continues to need people who are set apart; peculiar in the sense of being God’s task force in history.
I must say I find it a bit difficult to see clearly the contribution of this particular "God's task force" in the redemption of the world, but maybe it's just me, I don't know.

Anyway, Smith proceeds to the following section on "Israel" by saying that
the 20th century has also brought two agonizing problems for the Jews. The first relates to the Holocaust. What meaning can the concept of a Chosen People have in the face of a God who permitted this enormity? The other problem relates to the idealistic argument for the state of Israel that was mentioned. Having all but scripted the ideals of freedom and justice for Western civilization if not for the entire world, Jews now find themselves withholding these rights – forced for security reasons to withhold them, many Jews believe – from Palestinians whose territory they occupy as a result of the 1967 war.
Again, maybe it's just me, but doesn't it sound as a poetic but not very realistic justification of Jewish policies in the "Occupied Territories"?

Here's Smith's conclusion:
Without presuming to answer these problems, we can appreciate the burdens they place on the conscience of this exceptionally conscientious people. Facing their gravity, they take courage in the fact that at least now they are politically free to confront their problems. As the Star of David waves over their spiritual homeland, the dominant thought in the minds of the Jews is: Am Yisrael chai, Israel lives! How wonderful to be living when all this is happening.
Fade out music.Violins, I presume. ;)
jumpy64
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Unread post by jumpy64 »

While I'm researching Jewish education to examine its possible forms of conditioning (that's not easy, and it requires some time), I want to share a very interesting link I've found:

https://dublinsmick.wordpress.com/2015/ ... holocaust/

Since I've already quoted Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and the "Russian Holocaust" here, I'm studying this pretty extensive, and seemingly exhaustive review, published in the sept/oct 2008 issue of The Barnes Review, of his book "The Jews in the Soviet Union", effectively banned throughout much of the world and aggressively censored in all the English-speaking and European nations.

The editor claims that
How such an authoritative historical account of the Jewish relationship with the Soviet Union would come to be banned will be quickly understood after reading this post. There is perhaps no more vital and accurate record of the true history of Russia’s relationship with Eurasian Jewry than "The Jews in the Soviet Union". Together with part one, "Russian Jewish History: 1795-1916", they comprise Solzhenitsyn’s massive—and suppressed—"200 Years Together“
I think the magazine issue in question (in the page there's even a link to download it in its entirety) is worth reading, also to understand certain modalities of Jewish "integration" in other countries.
omaxsteve
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Re: The Holocaust: propaganda, censorship and media fakery

Unread post by omaxsteve »

I know that I will probably get my head ripped off for this , but is there room for any discussion about the possibility that there was actually a holocaust or is it "case closed"?

My personal experience is limited. The only thing that I know, for certain, is that both my grandparents had numbers tattooed on their forearms . They both were held in concentration camps. They both died before I was old enough to get any real "testimony" from them about their personal experiences.

I have no first hand knowledge of any killings, whether by gas chamber or other method, but I think it would be a disservice to all the members and any visitors here not to see ANY of the arguments that validate the holocaust. Rather than spend the time to put some of the primary arguments in writing , here is a link to a site that does a better job than I can of providing the best proof that there was a holocaust.


Here is an excerpt for those that do not want to read the entire article:
No Nazi was ever a Holocaust denier.

This one, simple fact shows that everything the modern deniers try to claim is a post hoc contrivance. From 1945 onwards, thousands of Nazis were captured and hundreds tried for their part in the Holocaust and other crimes against humanity. They tried to pretend they were someone else, they tried to pretend they didn't know what was happening, they tried to pretend they didn't have as much to do with it as others, they tried to claim they were just following orders and they tried to justify it as "the kind of thing that happens in war." But what not one of them ever did was deny it happened.

Even men on trial for their lives, in the full knowledge they would be hanged if convicted, never stood up in the courtroom and shouted "This is all a lie! This is a fabrication! There were no gas chambers and no crematoria! I'm being framed!" On the contrary, they gave great detail as to precisely how they had helped build and helped run the mechanics of mass murder, some of them even seeming proud of how they had achieved something so complex and on such a vast scale.


Is it possible that all of the defendants were actors and part of the hoax? I suppose so.

heres another excerpt:
he Shoah Visual History archive, which contains more than 52,000 eyewitness testimonies of Holocaust survivors, witnesses, rescuers and perpetrators.

The collection was created in the wake of the critically acclaimed film, Schindler's List. It represents the first effort to build a comprehensive archive comprised entirely of the stories, faces and voices of the people who experienced one of the darkest chapters of human history.

The Shoah archive employs the most advanced tools of technology and conservation. The testimonies are used for a wide range of purposes: original source material for scholarly research, genealogical and identity tracking, answering questions and filling in the gaps for the family members of holocaust victims, footage for filmmakers, source material for community and human rights groups, and content for students, in every discipline.

There is no reasonable person who can dispute the authenticity of 52,000 detailed testimonies with recurrent themes and stories. The original source material is safeguarded with great care.

The archive is physically housed at USC, but hundreds of organizations worldwide have full or partial access to the collection. There are stand-alone servers with curated collections- some contain stories of survivors from a specific place, others are organized are a special issue. The archive is fully searchable.

I chaired this effort for 8 years. It was an honor and a huge responsibility to get this right-- and hundreds of us, from every country, practicing every religion, speaking 33 languages of us worked hard on this task.

Since completing the cataloging of the original archive, we have added testimonies from citizens of Rwanda, Bosnia and other places where there are so many profound and dramatic examples of the worst-- and the best-- in human beings.


Again, is it possible that 52,000 detailed eyewitness testimonies were all fabrications? I guess so.

In law there is as term called "preponderance of evidence". I believe that the overwhelming majority of open minded individual who bother to research BOTH sides of the issue will come to the conclusion that this was not an event (like 9-11) that could possibly have been staged.

regards,

Steve O.
ProperGander
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Re: The Holocaust: propaganda, censorship and media fakery

Unread post by ProperGander »

Image

Simon Wiesenthal
"...was an Austrian writer and Nazi hunter. He was a Jewish Austrian Holocaust survivor who became famous after World War II for his work as a Nazi hunter.

He studied architecture and was living in Lviv (Lwów) at the outbreak of World War II. After being forced to work as a slave labourer in Nazi concentration camps such as Janowska, Plaszow, and Mauthausen during the war, Wiesenthal dedicated most of his life to tracking down and gathering information on fugitive Nazi war criminals so that they could be brought to trial. In 1947 he co-founded the Jewish Historical Documentation Center in Linz, Austria, where he and others gathered information for future war crime trials and aided refugees in their search for lost relatives. He opened the Jewish Documentation Center in Vienna in 1961 and continued to try to locate missing Nazi war criminals. He played a small role in locating Adolf Eichmann, who was captured in Buenos Aires in 1960, and worked closely with the Austrian justice ministry to prepare a dossier on Franz Stangl, who was sentenced to life imprisonment in 1971."


Autobiographical inconsistencies
Wiesenthal wrote a number of books, some of which contain conflicting stories and tales, many of which were invented. Several authors, including Segev and British author Guy Walters, feel that Wiesenthal's autobiographies cannot be considered reliable sources of information about his life and activities.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Wiesenthal

I think I saw a Netflix documentary recently about Mr. Wiesenthal and I believe this came up. He claimed to have worked at three different labor camps. Seems odd that he would have been transfer around like that.
Last edited by ProperGander on Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:29 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Seneca
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Unread post by Seneca »

jumpy64 wrote:
Well, if that was really the case, they must have taken it on board at a certain point, because it can't be said that we don't hear about the specialness of Jews very often. The Talmud is all about Jewish superiority, and even the Bible goes a bit in that direction, it seems. Maybe it's just God who's insisting... :unsure:
I think you could be more specific about who do you mean by "they". The writers of the Talmud? The JPM's? Israel?
jumpy64
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Unread post by jumpy64 »

Seneca wrote:
jumpy64 wrote:
Well, if that was really the case, they must have taken it on board at a certain point, because it can't be said that we don't hear about the specialness of Jews very often. The Talmud is all about Jewish superiority, and even the Bible goes a bit in that direction, it seems. Maybe it's just God who's insisting... :unsure:
I think you could be more specific about who do you mean by "they". The writers of the Talmud? The JPM's? Israel?
There I'm just referring to Smith's quote, and he's talking about the Jews or "Chosen people".
Flabbergasted
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Unread post by Flabbergasted »

Thanks for the interesting feedback, Jumpy. You might find other important clues in the first 16 pages, before the writer gets to the thorny issues of chosenness and Israel.
jumpy64 wrote:What the author says about Jews considering themselves "the Chosen People" is very nice and even poetic, but does it have any bearing with what we can observe in reality?
Now that you have listened to Smith´s poetic and archetypal (subservient, some might think*) but nevertheless possible rendering of the Jews´ role in the world (if God had His way!), you have an "edenic" extreme to compare "fallen" reality with, i.e. a spectrum instead of the mere realization of hubris, psychopathy and organized plunder. This could shed light on some of the stunning contradictions that make it so hard to put a meaningful label on Jews, Jewishness and Judaism.

*) In his book, Smith describes all the world´s orthodox religions with the same level of admiration.
Critical Mass
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Re: The Holocaust: propaganda, censorship and media fakery

Unread post by Critical Mass »

omaxsteve wrote:I know that I will probably get my head ripped off for this , but is there room for any discussion about the possibility that there was actually a holocaust or is it "case closed"?
Which bit of the Holocaust do you believe to be real?

The 'six million' predicted decades earlier?
The bizarre 'reconstructed' 'Homicidal gas chambers' which lack cyanide staining?

Simple question Steve do you think the following 'Tales of the Holocaust' are true?

Link
It was Eichmann who ordered full automation for the extermination camp at Auschwitz, where 2,500,000 Jews* were put to death, mostly by gas. It was he who arranged for them to be transported from the gas chambers to the crematoria chambers by conveyor belts
(* Currently 1.1 million on Wikipedia)

Link
"the traces of the electric conveyor belt, on which hundreds of people were simultaneously electrocuted, their bodies falling onto the slow moving conveyor belt which carried them to the top of the blast furnace where they fell in, were completely burned, their bones converted to meal in the rolling mills, and then sent to the surrounding fields."
Link
Katalin Weinberger was also in a German concentration camp at the end of World War II. There she helped save the life of her sister, Charlotte Frimm, when she was sick with typhus.

Katalin buried her sister in a remote part of the camp with just a small pipe sticking up through the soil for her to breathe. For 30 days she snuck food and water to her sister. A Jewish doctor at the camp snuck medicine to her. Frimm continued to suffer from severe asthma after they were freed.
Now remember people went & go to prison for denying these claims!


omaxsteve wrote: Is it possible that all of the defendants were actors and part of the hoax? I suppose so.
Seriously... you're completely unaware that there are serious problems with the 'Nuremberg Trial'?

Are you even aware of how absurd the official story is? Especially for at least one third of 'the Holocaust'...


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dxsVSzL4HE


Again, is it possible that 52,000 detailed eyewitness testimonies were all fabrications?
Well it appears many of them completely contradict the official story & are bunk...


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80GgRWuXcO8


I believe that the overwhelming majority of open minded individual who bother to research BOTH sides of the issue will come to the conclusion that this was not an event (like 9-11) that could possibly have been staged.

I too hope readers research both sides of the issue... even though such research could lead to the loss of their liberty and/or financial ruination.

Despite this I'd still advise it for any brave neutral... I'm sure Steve you too would also hope our readers are lucky enough to avoid imprisonment?


In addition let no individual claim that this is an 'anti-Semitic' research topic... many brave Jewish people have also concluded that there is a lot wrong with the 'official story'

http://www.righteousjews.org/article27a.html

http://rehmat1.com/2011/09/24/french-je ... %E2%80%99/

https://archive.org/details/ALetterFrom ... eToStevens
Last edited by Critical Mass on Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
omaxsteve
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Re: The Holocaust: propaganda, censorship and media fakery

Unread post by omaxsteve »

Apolologies in advance , I'm drivingwriting "under the influence" If there are typos , I'll comebback tomorrow and edit. I have already made my position on censorship clear :wacko: . I am not in favor of any censorship; short of inciting hatred.

Please don't aim your questions ,and proof of holo hoaxes at me. It matters not a whit to me if people believe, or do not believe , that there was a holocaust. Either, it happened, or it did not. I am open to the possibility of it being a hoax, but if it was a hoax, how did they pull it off? I was originally attracted to this site because inherently I knew that 9-11 was a hoax, but I could not figure out how "they" pulled it off. Simonshack and September Clues, helped me to "get" it. I've yet to see any feasible explanation for how the holocaust could have been "hoaxed" into public consciousness. This was not a one day event. It took place over many years, in many countries. It would be like faking the treatment of slaves in America. Were the first generation of colored skinned people treated equally and fairly in America?

Another issue I have is the extent to which "they" could have distorted reality? Were Jews in Nazi germany allowed to live freely, work, own businesses, buy property, etc? Or were they imprisoned, and put in camps, without having committed any crime other than being Jewish? .

Assuming that they (Jews ) were persecuted, and imprisoned, but there were no mass executions, would that be considered a crime? If they were just rounded up, tattooed, put on boats and expelled from Germany would that have been acceptable?

Would it be any more , or less, acceptable if a country committed that type of atrocity to any ethnic group?

Final thoughts for tonight :

What are the chances that anyone that was guilty of plotting, and or executing this giant holo hoax is still alive today?

If it did turn out to be a hoax, would not the Jews ( every Jew that was not involved in the great conspiracy, be the biggest victims? Do you think that Selene ( and thousands of others innocent Jews ) that were lied to by their parents and convinced that there grandparents great uncles, aunts, etc were exterminated in gas chambers were not traumatized by this news?

In the Jewish conspiracy thread, it seemed like many here were concerned for the poor babies psychological health after the trauma of circumcision.

Exactly what advantage is gained by the average good and law abiding Jewish citizen of today from holocaust denial being criminalized?

The only advantage I can think of is that it prevents them from being the target of abuse and victims of hate crimes. Unless you believe that all living Jews should be impugned for the sins of their ancestors, what is the end game benefit of attempting to prove the holocaust was a hoax?

This site could be an important part of history. Exposing media fakery, 9-11 and so many other current hoaxes may eventually pave the way for changes in the way the world , and especially the media operates. Exposing the holocaust "hoax" even if you could effectively do so , benefits no one.

If you truly believe that the JPMs are behind all the hoaxes, would not the best srategy for defeating them be getting the mainstream Jews; those that have families, kids, jobs, pay taxes, etc.on your side? Those 95% + innocent jews that are affected just as much as all the non-jews by the media fakery and psy-ops that you are exposing, may be your best allies in "taking down" the JPM perps.

I can guarantee that you will not attract many Jews to your side by questioning the gravity of the holocaust. Whether it happened as purported or not, pretty much every Jewish person I know finds it offensive for the treatment of their ancestors in Nazi Germany to be found as anything less than deplorable.

Choose your battles carefully. Keep your eyes on the prize. You can lead the exodus of the sheeple from their controllers, or you can be just another fringe "conspiracy group". Love is stronger than hate.

Happy Thanksgiving weekend to all the Canadians ;

Regards,

Steve O.
jumpy64
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Unread post by jumpy64 »

Flabbergasted wrote:Now that you have listened to Smith´s poetic and archetypal (subservient, some might think*) but nevertheless possible rendering of the Jews´ role in the world (if God had His way!), you have an "edenic" extreme to compare "fallen" reality with, i.e. a spectrum instead of the mere realization of hubris, psychopathy and organized plunder.
You're right. It gives you a certain scope and a wider perspective.
jumpy64
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Unread post by jumpy64 »

Seneca wrote:
jumpy64 wrote:
Well, if that was really the case, they must have taken it on board at a certain point, because it can't be said that we don't hear about the specialness of Jews very often. The Talmud is all about Jewish superiority, and even the Bible goes a bit in that direction, it seems. Maybe it's just God who's insisting... :unsure:
I think you could be more specific about who do you mean by "they". The writers of the Talmud? The JPM's? Israel?
Sorry, Seneca, I think I missed your point the first time. You're right, I should specify that, even though probably most Jews started believing in their specialness at a certain point (after all, it would be tempting for anybody to do so), the ones who "took it on board" the most were especially the authors of the Talmud, JPMs and Zionists.

Thank you for pointing this out.
Seneca
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Re: The Holocaust: propaganda, censorship and media fakery

Unread post by Seneca »

Whether omxasteve is disingenious or not, I don't think it is bad advice to at least try to get the non-JPM jewish people on board.I hope when he is sober he can confirm that nobody here is calling the "treatment of their ancestors in Nazi Germany" anything less than deplorable. Only less exceptional.
Seneca
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Re: The Holocaust: propaganda, censorship and media fakery

Unread post by Seneca »

simonshack wrote:
Selene wrote:
My great-grandparents and my grandpas sister (he had just one, no inflated 10 siblings or so...) all died while my grandfather survived. He was clearly traumatized by the war.

It's hard to be the great-grandchild of a vicsim, wouldn't you agree?

Gravestones in extermination camps? Or back home? After the devastating effect of the war and the real horror which was only discovered by digging into archives many years later?
selene wrote: Of those people, only 10.3 % survived...
Wow - 10.3% ? Is that counting stray limbs and all?

Well, Selene - if the above few lines are all you have to offer regarding your alleged personal family history, I think you are full of shit.

Bye now.
Simon, I hope you haven't banned Selene permanently. As you know I was very suspicious of him after his first posts and I never let my suspicion overboard, but I still think he could be sincere. His contributions on this topic were not very helpful, I think this is because he overestimates the importance of his own findings. Like when he thought his impressions of his trip to Chernobyl could be proof that nuclear power is real.
But at least (if he is sincere) he is doing research, traveling to these places like Chernobyl, Auschwitz and Sobibor. For me that shows his motivation to do research on the ground, more than I ever did. Research that we need. But he needs help drawing conclusions from his research, nobody is perfect.
As we can also see on his posts on this topic, he often misinterprets what others write and has difficulties questioning this interpretation. And he has a writing style that can lead to others misinterpreting him. For example, I think that with this part "Gravestones in extermination camps? Or back home?" he could have meant simply that he didn't thought that his Jewish relatives were buried so there wouldn't be gravestones.
To prevent these kinds of misunderstandings I proposed him he let somebody review his posts before he would post them here. He didn't respond to that suggestion.

Please consider readmitting him, under strict conditions, we are so few.
By the way I haven't read his latest posts in the dinosaur, I know he was very emotional about this topic.
Critical Mass
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Re: The Holocaust: propaganda, censorship and media fakery

Unread post by Critical Mass »

arc300 wrote:Cry me a river, you disingenuous clown. After reading the retarded shit that you just wrote, I had a look at your previous posts and I've got to say I can't believe you weren't told to fuck off years ago.

I have to agree with arc300... Steve's bizarre & emotional ramble was perhaps the worst post I've yet read on Cluesforum.

If I was forced to choose just one line to point out...
I can guarantee that you will not attract many Jews to your side by questioning the gravity of the holocaust.
Which begs a number of questions.

Has exposing the 9/11 Hoax been a fabulously successful marketing strategy... well endorsed & accepted by the '95%+ of innocent' Americans?

Is Cluesforum about 'attracting' punters now?

Did he not read the links* that showed there were brave Jewish people (some of whom have also been sent to Jail &/or lost their jobs) who also thought the Holocaust story was a 'fishy' one?

Are they trying to 'attract' 'Jews' to 'their side'? Or instead are they just inquisitive people trying to find the truth through mountains of (proven) media bullshit?




* Clearly not... he's not interested.
Last edited by Critical Mass on Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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