Talking about this with my mother

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nonhocapito
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Talking about this with my mother

Unread post by nonhocapito » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:44 pm

I don't know if this is of any interest here, but I thought I could share.

Something that is new for me, is that lately I started *talking* with people in real life about the existence of such a powerful propaganda machine based on fakery and the creation of fake events. Wow, it is strange.
I think it was hoi.polloi who wrote somewhere on this forum about Plato's cave, which is something I consequently often mention.

I discussed this with my mother, who always enjoy a polemic and who is an eccentric loner (so much so she is considered a "village idiot" by the stupid people who cannot and will never understand or accept variety).

Other than posing all the questions like: what about the witnesses? the offices? the victims? etc her objection was essentially two-fold:

"it seems a little too complicated and paranoid. In reality, nobody lives *outside* Plato's cave, the cave is our mind and its ghosts." (she believes the human world is based on chaos and not in the slight controlled if not in pathetic delusional ways) and

"it implies that you who understand it are a genius and everyone else is stupid. " (which is her historical objection from the '70 to Marcuse's man with one dimension).

My own replies...

first, I don't deny chaos, but it features a lot of moments of calmness and control, which in the brevity of human existence appear solid although chaos sweeps them away sooner that we would expect (if we lived, I don't know, three hundred years). Otherwise civilization itself, which brought not only wars but also peace and boredom (from which sparkled so many great things), would have never been possible if chaos ruled. And maybe, during those brief moments of control, someone has learned to operate the machine that projects ghosts into our mind. Wasn't oratory, or the theater, the finest of the arts during Roman times?

second, I don't know what Marcuse thought of himself, maybe he really despised humanity when he described the gullibility of the masses. My opinion is that the gullibility is only a reaction on the surface, while in the deep of our minds we feel that the truth is more complicated, and that a lot of malice is easily involved (we've all been children, and we know malice is a quality that develops early). So accepting an hoax happens to be a social sign, manifests our need to be accepted, more than it is a sign of stupidity... we just make the quick decision to believe in something, because it would take too much energy to do the opposite. But these times, when life is easier, more people have time and energy to spare. Which I guess doesn't make the pigs in charge very happy.

I also argued that these are times of great revelations, and a clash is taking place between the old conspiratorial ways and a new need for truth that is probably born in many of us out of sheer boredom for the narrative proposed. (Skeptical looks from my mother ensued.)

...On the other hand, although refusing to watch any movie or website (I'll try again next time I see her, probably next year), my mother was intrigued by my description of how exhilarating and uplifting can be to confront such reading of the events (the vicsims and their hilarious pictures and memorials for example).

When in the past we had discussed similar things, such has the dirty kidnapping and death of Aldo Moro (who concerned her on the side because she was part of a communist group in italy during the 70s), and 9-11 itself as an inside job (as I understood it in the past), the picture was generally bleak and oppressive, the outcome wasn't nearly as positive at this, and this new take she liked and it interested her.

This good mood, this humor, of which I am developing my own version, I also picked up on this forum and within the work of Simon and I am thankful for it.

I also talked about it with my girlfriend and a friend. Maybe I'll report about these talks some other time. For the moment, I'll enjoy your thoughts on this.

fred
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Unread post by fred » Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:24 pm

I once read somewhere that there are only about 5 million people who take an interest in international affairs or national security. I'm not sure if that number was for the entire world or just for the US. If that's true, events that happened or didn't happen in New York, London, or Madrid are just not going to register with the majority of people who are worried about their own jobs and things happening in their own neighborhoods or families. For many people it doesn't really matter if the TV is tuned to a game show, an action movie, real news or fake news: as long as it's flickering and making noise it provides them the distraction they're seeking.

I think the core audience for what we do here is limited to people who actually care about these issues. Most people in the general public are just along for the ride and are happy with their mainstream media cocoon.

To make an analogy with music, most people like the songs that were popular when they were teenagers and there's not much you can do to get them to listen to anything else. There's a small number of people who are interested in something different or something new, but most people are happy staying stuck in the same rut forever.

As a general rule, you'll have more luck talking to the people who actually care what's going on in the world.

brianv
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Unread post by brianv » Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:28 pm

I'd direct your mum towards Gladio since you mentioned Aldo Moro and "Communist factions" in Italy...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

http://www.danieleganser.ch/Home.html?lang=en

Make sure she reads Nato's Secret Army too.

nonhocapito
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Unread post by nonhocapito » Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:40 pm

@brianv: oh, I plugged to my mother much more than that. There's a publishing house in Italy (called KAOS) which have been issuing all sort of incredible research about the years of terrorism in this country. On the Moro case there are plenty of books by a researcher named Flamigni* who exhaustively have proved connections between the Red Brigades and the area of intelligence not only of the US but of Israel too (Italy back then was decisively on the side of Palestinians).
Anyway, to conclude the personal story, having been involved indirectly with the events of those years, my mother have always refused the idea that the whole experience could have been hijacked and used blatantly by hidden forces to achieve very different results. So it is an interesting polemic where a common ground is hardly ever found.

* update: the books by Flamigni listed here
http://www.kaosedizioni.com/catalogo_op ... amigni.htm

Brutal Metal
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Unread post by Brutal Metal » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:13 pm

fred @ Sep 2 2010, 02:24 PM wrote: I once read somewhere that there are only about 5 million people who take an interest in international affairs or national security. I'm not sure if that number was for the entire world or just for the US. If that's true, events that happened or didn't happen in New York, London, or Madrid are just not going to register with the majority of people who are worried about their own jobs and things happening in their own neighborhoods or families. For many people it doesn't really matter if the TV is tuned to a game show, an action movie, real news or fake news: as long as it's flickering and making noise it provides them the distraction they're seeking.

I think the core audience for what we do here is limited to people who actually care about these issues. Most people in the general public are just along for the ride and are happy with their mainstream media cocoon.

To make an analogy with music, most people like the songs that were popular when they were teenagers and there's not much you can do to get them to listen to anything else. There's a small number of people who are interested in something different or something new, but most people are happy staying stuck in the same rut forever.

As a general rule, you'll have more luck talking to the people who actually care what's going on in the world.
I 100% agree Fred when I ask friends to check out Sept Clues in depth they say
"Wow that's So Much to digest!" Then they ask all the obvious questions..
Where's the people? Planes? etc.. etc.. without even watching hardly any of Simons stuff, it's frustrating!! People don't wanna believe it, their too scared to grasp what this all means or as you said they simply don't want to and would rather amuse themselves with stuff closer to their own neighborhoods!

hoi.polloi
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Unread post by hoi.polloi » Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:38 pm

Listen; we're not geniuses. Can you explain something important to people who think you have a superiority complex just for doubting something told to you? It's very simple. We are good at one kind of research called "I don't believe you".

Most people believe someone they've never met about something they'll never actually know. Even we are forced to do that about certain ideas. But look, after every 100 years or so, the entire population dies and is replaced. That's life being human. Knowledge is essentially wiped out at this pace with the only saving grace being attempts at communication, education and decrypting of previous generations' ramblings.

Just like people who have a huge amount of knowledge about deer sh#t or know the complex ins and outs of a television show that the writers really didn't think that hard about writing, so we have taken one little particular thing about this world and extrapolated it. When we are dead, nobody will know jack about it. The first World War is - essentially - already forgotten. Just a few more old survivors who remember it in their childhood and poof! It will all be rewritten.

There's nobody here writing string theory. Nobody is contributing math models and formulas to anything. Nobody is decrypting hieroglyphics.

We are just sitting here - in the moment, processing information as it comes to us - and remaining in the strange mystery of not knowing what the hell is going on.

Anyone who actually believes their own bullshit - with all due respect to your mom - is kidding themselves.

I do this research with tongue firmly planted in cheek, knowing above all else that I know nothing. How can that be the work of a 'genius'?!

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Unread post by JamedD » Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:02 pm

I discovered TV Fakery about a month after discovering 9/11 truth in general. In 2007 a friend told me to watch Loose Change and I was gobsmacked. Up until then I had never heard of WTC7. Trust me anyone who watches Loose Change only remembers WTC7.

Well I looked around on the net and noticed a lot of hostility towards fakery. The Hologram thing sounded really dumb to me and put me off completely (well done Alex Jones) but anyway out of pure curiosity I looked up fakery on YouTube. A few videos convinced me.

Fakery is very easy to prove. The hard part is getting people over the initial jump of disbelief. My advice is just show them the evidence. Don't start with September Clues It's too long and without a narration for most people too boring. Start with some short videos on YouTube highlighting sunlight discrepancy. That's what did it for me.

nonhocapito
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Unread post by nonhocapito » Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:52 pm

hoi.polloi 4 Sep 2 2010, 11:38 PM wrote: Anyone who actually believes their own bullshit - with all due respect to your mom - is kidding themselves.
My mother belongs to a generation that placed an incredible amount of trust into journalism, it wouldn't be reasonable for her to give up that trust only because her son shows her a trick or two. something said on TV is to her similar to something read on a newspaper, which is the only way to know what goes on in the world period. She still has a very critical mind, more critical than that of a lot of younger people I know.

but I think it was interesting her objection that the whole grand scheme of projecting images on a screen and hypnotizing the masses with it... is too complicated.
I think it is interesting given that humans so often don't really seem able to cook up something like this convoluted and keep up with it. Where is the manual? How it works across the generations?
It makes you think that in a way it is a twisted act of hope to think humanity stupid or incapable. If men are not that smart, the amounts of malice and cunning evil around are greatly reduced, only remaining the barbarous part: murder, greed, lust etc. which is the meaningless horror of nature one is accustomed to by the time she's 70.
It doesn't matter if I agree (I don't and I do, depending on the day), in a way reality is what we think it is.

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Unread post by nonhocapito » Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:06 am

JamedD 4 Sep 3 2010, 12:02 AM wrote: I discovered TV Fakery about a month after discovering 9/11 truth in general. In 2007 a friend told me to watch Loose Change and I was gobsmacked. Up until then I had never heard of WTC7. Trust me anyone who watches Loose Change only remembers WTC7.

Well I looked around on the net and noticed a lot of hostility towards fakery. The Hologram thing sounded really dumb to me and put me off completely (well done Alex Jones) but anyway out of pure curiosity I looked up fakery on YouTube. A few videos convinced me.
Not that it is a competition or anything, but I knew on the same day of September 11th 2001 that what i had just watched on TV was not possible. Seeing the two towers crumbling did it for me. Before WTC 7 and all the rest. I knew it wasn't possible that two planes, etc etc.

I was at work (a work abandoned long ago), watching TV, and I still hear myself telling to my boss: "this is going to work so great for a lot of people", and I remember the indignant looks I got for that.
Reading for years, and with passion, about the conspiratorial ways of italian politics and crime and terror had vaccinated me to such an ambitious theater of news.

Yet I knew nothing (and I still know nothing) and I just swam against the current of bullshit for years, and during the years I have achieved so little. How I believed AJ is a complete mystery to me, but I did for a few years.
To think that the first time I saw him on video i thought "what a crook!" Ah, the first impressions. But he was the only one saying the things we wanted to hear, right?

Fakery came a lot later and as I said elsewhere it was liberating. Finally a line of thought that did not lead to a dead end, and I don't mean with results, because I don't know squat for a fact just like the first day, but inside myself: a line of thought that liberated ideas instead of imprisoning them.

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Unread post by JamedD » Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:35 am

What do you mean by you didn't believe it? You knew it was all fake but said nothing? more people should have recognised it as outright fraud at the time. It's a disgrace that it took nearly a decade and the genius of one man a Simon Shack to say what really happened.

Maybe the truth about 9/11 was discovered just in time to prevent a false flag to start a war with Iran (who can tell?) but too late for the people of Iraq and Afghanistan? It's tragic when you think about it. The dis-info artists really do have blood on their hands.

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Unread post by nonhocapito » Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:50 am

JamedD @ Sep 3 2010, 01:35 AM wrote: What do you mean by you didn't believe it? You knew it was all fake but said nothing?
I meant I didn't believe that the towers fell because of the planes: it was too much.

There is an expression in italian I used in my head on that day that condenses mistrust and sarcasm. I was being showed too much theater. This doesn't mean I knew anything else, let alone that I was watching FAKE images. Only that i was presented some scene that was not possible to explain the way it was being explained.

As for saying something to someone, since i didn't know any facts as i said, it doesn't make that much of a difference whether I did or not: all I had was a hunch, right? who cares about it? But just to make clear, I talked a lot about my feelings right away, on the days and weeks following 9/11, and later I stopped talking about it with anyone, and turned to the internet instead. I bet this is something that happened to a lot of other people. It is pretty nauseating to try and reason with people ablaze with rhetoric and easy lies, which is more or less what happened to you every day you got out of the house back then.

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Unread post by JamedD » Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:57 am

I just can't understand how it took so long for the truth to come out. You should be trying to analyse exactly how they manipulated you. This is the only way we can learn.

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Unread post by ozzybinoswald » Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:01 am

Sounds to me like Ace's "village idiot" mother is just a literary device to introduce his script.

nonhocapito
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Unread post by nonhocapito » Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:06 am

JamedD @ Sep 3 2010, 01:57 AM wrote: I just can't understand how it took so long for the truth to come out. You should be trying to analyse exactly how they manipulated you. This is the only way we can learn.
You are right. I must admit that exactly this waste of time, this knowing right away that something so big is a lie and yet almost immediately losing the way in a sea of theories, this is how disinformation works, and boy did it work with me.

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Unread post by JamedD » Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:15 am

OK, now figure out how it worked with you. Write about it in detail, intelligently. There are going to be more 9/11 like events, this is your chance to now do what you should have done all those years ago. Warn people in advance! what to expect so as not to fall down the same traps you did.

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