Murder of Italian politician Aldo Moro - what was it really?

Global War deceptions & mass manipulation, fear-mongering terror schemes and propaganda in the Age of the Bomb

Re: Murder of Italian politician Aldo Moro - what was it rea

Postby nonhocapito on August 13th, 2011, 4:27 pm

bostonterrierowner wrote:The picture of Moro in a trunk shows some other type of a car , its way too big for a R4 , compare it to the other pics of this legendary vehicle :)
The trunk is too wide , Aldo's position in it would be impossible in a real R4 . Maybe we are onto smth. here ?
Photographer responsible for this picture is an interesting individual , we are still waiting for Simon to write more about him once the dust on Utoya settles down ... :)


Yes the R4 seems to simply be too big (did models exist of a different scale? I doubt it.) But don't forget that we have a video of Moro in the trunk, too (taken from the same location):


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOVrxtHKnOM

Has the video actually been around since 1978? (I remember having seen this video before, but when exactly it came out?)

If the video was leaked to TV in 1994 as the caption seem to imply ("Mixer" was a program of italian TV hosted by journalist known for his dubious political affiliations), then it could be a retroactive digital manipulation created to lend credibility to the psy-op... Otherwise we have to think at a different kind of "special effects" at work...

I notice only now that the scrolling titles explain that the video comes from the archives of one "Beppe Baghdikian", and that the video was taken by one "Valerio Leccese", first journalist on site that afternoon. Leccese was a journalist of a private local station in Rome, "GBR".
I seem to understand that Baghdikian died in the 90s (http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/1997 ... 4823.shtml), so maybe that's why this video was "leaked", although wikipedia (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBR_%28rete_televisiva%29) seem to imply that the images were immediately acquired by the national TV RAI, and broadcasted back in 1978. I can't tell which is the truth at this stage.

I can tell that GBR belonged to the same political area as the RAI TV program "Mixer": the anti-communist socialist party of Bettino Craxi. Craxi will be exposed as a crucial element of the whole Moro operation... he was assigned the "humanitarian" role of one willing to deal with the terrorists to save Moro... a role given to him to gain the sympathies of the left and carry it to a safer pro-USA position. It has been proved that Craxi's rise to the leadership of the socialist party was supported ans sponsored by the P2 lodge, because of Craxi anti-communist atlantic beliefs, and his willingness and eagerness to be corrupted, just like the leadership of the christian party in the person of politician Giulio Andreotti needed... (more on this crucial figure later) (sorry, it's the Moro case :rolleyes: )

Image
From http://www.socialisti.net/SOCIALISTI/biografiacr.htm
Bettino Craxi and Giulio Andreotti ruled Italy in the 80s


Back to this crucial video: it can be difficult at this stage to explain a digital manipulation for this possibly very old document, but there might be a simpler explanation that just occurs to me: we have seen how the red renault 4 carried certain symbolic meanings for the italian left, that had elected it as its favorite "enlightened proletariat" vehicle (yes I know it sounds stupid but those were the years when anything had a political connotation); so let's say it was a weird requirement for the psy-op to use this vehicle and not another.

Maybe what we see here is a "mock" R4 built on purpose, slightly larger than reality (or, less likely, a mock body, slightly smaller), like in a cinematographic set. (which would explain why later the car disappeared or was destroyed). Compared to video manipulation, I can place this possibility more reasonably in the Italy of the 70s, in the city that had Cinecittà and the greatest european directors and special effects experts of those years (such as Carlo Rambaldi, responsible for King Kong and E.T. and other major psy-op movies... Rambaldi never used computers or video manipulation, only scaled, often robotized models, from the giant to the tiny.)
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Re: Murder of Italian politician Aldo Moro - what was it rea

Postby corsarino on August 13th, 2011, 5:44 pm

1.485 meters is the external size of rear of R4.

The internal size was 1,15- meters, I presume

Moro was taller than others politics of that period.

There were some jokes on heights of Italian politic men:

1) They were Piccoli,Storti, Malfatti (like On. Piccoli (DC), On. Storti, On Malfatti) (Little,Twisted,Badmade)

2) An agreement was made between the Italian President and a "Alto Moro" (Tall Black Man)

3) Carabinieri stopped a tiny Fiat 500; they shouted "Open the front bonnet!"; the driver replied "Oh My God!, they have kidnapped Fanfani too!"

Moro wasn't tall like me (1,90 m) but taller than my father (1.75 m); so i presume 1,78 m which was notably high for men of that generation.

Last time i Saw him, he was more thin than usual.
Last edited by corsarino on August 13th, 2011, 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Murder of Italian politician Aldo Moro - what was it rea

Postby nonhocapito on August 13th, 2011, 8:07 pm

corsarino wrote:1.485 meters is the external size of rear of R4.

The internal size was 1,15- meters, I presume

Moro was taller than others politics of that period.

There were was jokes on heights of Italian politic men:

1) They were Piccoli,Storti, Malfatti (like On. Piccoli (DC), On. Storti, On Malfatti) (Little,Contorted,Badmade

2) An agreement was made between the Italian President and a "Alto Moro" (Tall Black Man)

3) Carabinieri stopped a tiny Fiat 500; they shouted "Open the front bonnet!"; the driver replied "Urca, they have kidnapped Fanfani too!"

Moro wasn't tall like me (1,90 m) but taller than my father (1.75 m); so i presume 1,78 m which was notably high for men of that generation.

Last time i Saw him, he was more thin than usual.


So you or your family was in contact and met Aldo Moro? Can I ask the circumstances?

So, according to what you say about Moro, and what has been observed about the R4 capacity, either the body of Moro was not in that car, or the car was a movie studio "mock".
In any case, we are in presence of stronger fakery than already acknowledged for this operation. Personally, I am amazed and ever more puzzled... and of course also grateful. Especially thanks to bostonterrierowner for putting me on the hunt... :) Now we have to get to the bottom of this, for what it will be allowed.
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Re: Murder of Italian politician Aldo Moro - what was it rea

Postby bostonterrierowner on August 13th, 2011, 8:46 pm

Thanks NoHo ,

I am trying to find links that SB ( Sluzba Bezpieczenstwa - communist secret police ) had with the various "terrorist" operations abroad especially since Wojtyla became a pope . I already know about SB units operating in the west very much like organized crime gangs. It was acknowledged on public TV many times . My gut tells me there is much more in common between Popieluszko's barbarous abduction (?) and martyr-like death (?) and Moro's case. Red Brigades , Bader Meinhoff , Carlos etc were supposed to be funded from the communist east since I think all this cold war stuff is BS we can uncover here some international cooperation with disregard of ideological inclinations :)
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Re: Murder of Italian politician Aldo Moro - what was it rea

Postby corsarino on August 13th, 2011, 9:43 pm

Aldo Moro was 2 cm. taller than Henry Kissinger; you can see photos in Googleland.

Henry Kissinger is 5' 9" inc. tall.

Andrey Gromiko ( 5' 11" inc.) was taller then Aldo Moro.

So Aldo Moro was 1,78 cm. (5' 10"inc.)
Last edited by corsarino on August 13th, 2011, 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Murder of Italian politician Aldo Moro - what was it rea

Postby nonhocapito on August 13th, 2011, 9:55 pm



Thanks corsarino. I also found a blueprint of the R4 in the meantime.

ImageImageImageImage

Image
From http://blueprintbox.com/details.php?image_id=12213

The closed trunk looks much smaller since the door is less than one meter wide (which explains the impression of "impossibility" I had the other day looking at a R4 closed trunk).
I don't think it counts as a test, however, I am 1,85. I tried to lie down on my couch in Moro's position (feeling quite idiotic) and measured the length I covered in 1,24~. The inside of the trunk, according to the blueprint is roughly 1,1 so maybe... the body could fit after all? (Sorry if we are going in circles but that's research sometimes B))
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Re: Murder of Italian politician Aldo Moro - what was it rea

Postby corsarino on August 14th, 2011, 8:32 am

From http://www.opinione.it/articolo.php?arg=14&art=101339

According to Rolando Fava (ANSA photographer and journalist at the time) the memory of pictures of the body of Aldo Moro in the boot of the Renault was the most important of his life: he made the front pages around the world. Rolando Fava recalled that, 13 to May 9 of that, there was a great traffic in Piazza Venezia, which had prompted him to inquire about what was happening.
He had heard that had been reported in Via Caetani the presence of a car that contained a bomb. Normal thing in the years of lead. The road was immediately closed by both sides. "There had been the claim of the Red Brigades and Via Caetani were oddly arrived Cossiga, Colombo and Gonella - Ansa remembered Fava -.
I was immediately struck by the eerie silence. But I had no idea that this could be Moro, when I went into the Palazzo Caetani (and I could only do so via a secondary entrance that I knew, on the back) and I asked the concierge's favor appears in a window, a meter by a meter, the first floor of his apartment.
From there I took pictures of the bomb, which first opened the bonnet, then the trunk. Just then someone has lifted the blanket and saw Aldo Moro in that position a little 'unnatural, I still believed he was drugged, he was asleep ... but it was not for long, once the road is filled with the pain of all. "
Rolando Fava is always randomly touched also exclusive of the statesman's funeral, in Torrita Tiberina, which occurred unexpectedly, in secret, with the simple coffin, carried on shoulders to the cemetery by family members, and in the pouring rain, through the narrow streets Moro dear to the village: it was all happening quickly, May 10, the day after the discovery of his body.
Why the rush? Already in 1978 the scientific discoveries of medicine provided that, in the field of post-mortem, would have to date and quantify characteristics of the place where death and murder had consumed. The message
Moro found in the rear of a Renault parked in Via Caetani, a stone's throw from the headquarters of the Communist Party in Via delle Botteghe Oscure and a short walk from the Piazza del Gesu DC


How many photographers were in those buildings all around Via Caetani?
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Re: Murder of Italian politician Aldo Moro - what was it rea

Postby corsarino on August 14th, 2011, 9:35 am

Here is a colorful masterpiece:

http://www.navecorsara.it/wp/2010/10/01/di-chi-e-questa-foto/

It is possibile to see the color of the uniforms and hats.
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Re: Murder of Italian politician Aldo Moro - what was it rea

Postby nonhocapito on August 14th, 2011, 11:30 am

corsarino wrote:Here is a colorful masterpiece:

http://www.navecorsara.it/wp/2010/10/01/di-chi-e-questa-foto/

It is possibile to see the color of the uniforms and hats.


I don't understand that blog article, that seem to imply a conflict of attribution... Although taken seconds apart, the two pictures are not the same. Certianly Fava and Giansanti, if they are the authors, must have been shoulder to shoulder doing this... which makes 3 photojournalists up there, with Valerio Leccese. Although in the video we see Leccese having moved up to the roof. Did the others move as well?

Image
Leccese shooting from the roof


Anyway: that article you linked to corsarino, http://www.opinione.it/articolo.php?arg=14&art=101339 is very interesting... it says that Fava "entered palazzo cateani" and took pictures from it. I had read this before of course, from other sources (without the name of the photographer)... But here's something I always wondered: Did Palazzo Caetani cover the whole block? I'm not sure... Where does Palazzo Caetani end? How do you qualify a "entrance from the back" in such a situation? There are a dozen of entrances all around the block...

Image
From google street view, the probable locations of photographers in via caetani

Image
From google earth, the probable location of photographers in via caetani. But are they really "in Palazzo caetani?"
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Re: Murder of Italian politician Aldo Moro - what was it rea

Postby bostonterrierowner on August 14th, 2011, 11:33 am

One more thing regarding priest Jerzy Popieluszko and his abduction. He was thrown into the trunk of Polish Fiat 125 p and the rope was tied around his neck and legs in Italian Mafia way . Any attempt to at least partially stretch his legs was causing strangulation . First thing that came to my mind in this period or a bit later was Italian TV Series with polish title "Octopuss" about some cup called Cattani sent to Siciliy to fight Mafia. In one episode I remember abduction very similar to Popieluszko's with exactly the same tying pattern.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... 0718191931

La Piovra with Michele Placido starring Corrado Cattani , 1984 .
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Re: Murder of Italian politician Aldo Moro - what was it rea

Postby nonhocapito on August 14th, 2011, 11:56 am

bostonterrierowner wrote:One more thing regarding priest Jerzy Popieluszko and his abduction. He was thrown into the trunk of Polish Fiat 125 p and the rope was tied around his neck and legs in Italian Mafia way . Any attempt to at least partially stretch his legs was causing strangulation . First thing that came to my mind in this period or a bit later was Italian TV Series with polish title "Octopuss" about some cup called Cattani sent to Siciliy to fight Mafia. In one episode I remember abduction very similar to Popieluszko's with exactly the same tying pattern.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... 0718191931

La Piovra with Michele Placido starring Corrado Cattani , 1984 .


I can't believe La piovra was broadcasted in Poland! :blink: :lol: A real bullshit series that one.

Anyway the Mafia accomplished many "political" crimes as exchange of favors with politicians and other forces. In the Moro case, the Mafia, both sicilian and roman, enters from all sorts of doors and windows. Tommaso Buscetta (famous Mafia boss) will declare that the Mafia went directly to the RB a few times, asking if they would accept to claim a murder accomplished by the Mafia for themselves, to which the RB officially responded: "only if one of our men takes part to it". History doesn't tell if this happened or not.

But the methods of the RB where often Mafia-style, like "warnings" and "punishments". It remains to understand if they derive one from the other, or rather if all men, put in the position to exercise arbitrary violence, end up behaving the same ways.

P.s: I hope you noticed that after a bit of uncertainty and a "round trip" of considerations, I am back to the idea that Moro was in fact in via caetani in that car.
I just wanted to state here that I am glad my uncertainty and indecision on the matter has been documented with these few posts.
This is research in "real time", we are not writing a book, and it is important when the method above all (if there is one), is shown.
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Re: Murder of Italian politician Aldo Moro - what was it rea

Postby corsarino on August 14th, 2011, 7:39 pm

If you want enter in Palazzo Caetani, in order to shoot photos in Via Caetani, after Police blocked Via Caetani, you can choose the entrance (in order):

1) in Via dei Funari (my best choice)
2) In via delle Botteghe Oscure 32
3) In Via dei Funari (Piazza Mattei)
4) In Piazza Paganica (Piazza dell'Enciclopedia Italiana)

Rolando Fava and Gianni Giansanti were on "first floor"; Fava was nearest o R4.
Leccese went upstairs until the top of the building.

I remenber that they talked about a permission given by a religious female association; but probably they (RAI TV) were talking about S Lucia dei Filippini in Via della Botteghe Oscure (front of Via Caetani).

I never notice that "Berretti Verdi" were in Via Caetani; I remember Vigili del Fuoco (Firefigthers) with their ambulance. What a singular coordination of many forces!
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Re: Murder of Italian politician Aldo Moro - what was it rea

Postby nonhocapito on August 14th, 2011, 7:55 pm

corsarino wrote:If you want enter in Palazzo Caetani, in order to shoot photos in Via Caetani, after Police blocked Via Caetani, you can choose the entrance (in order):
1) in Via dei Funari (my best choice)
2) In via delle Botteghe Oscure 32
3) In Via dei Funari (Piazza Mattei)
4) In Piazza Paganica (Piazza dell'Enciclopedia Italiana)


So wait you're saying that "Palazzo Caetani" covers the whole block? The palace with the "Ufficio di studi americani" or the one with the enciclopedia italiana is also "palazzo caetani"? And they're all connected? (maybe via the courtyard?) Maybe this can be said a simplification, but I don't think it is correct to call them all "Palazzo caetani".
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Re: Murder of Italian politician Aldo Moro - what was it rea

Postby corsarino on August 14th, 2011, 9:21 pm

The correct name is "Isola Mattei"; that place was named after the first owner "Famiglia Mattei", exactly as Piazza Mattei (famous for the turtles fontain).

Palazzo Antici-Mattei is on the south-east corner; Giacomo Leopardi lived there; There is Centro Studi Americani, Cineteca Nazionale and a safe house of secret service.

Palazzo Caetani is on north-east corner,there are diplomatic institutions and a courtyard with two lions with a road access.

Under those building there are the rest of Teathre of Balbo, part of them are visible at payment.

Via Caetani is the border between "platea" and "palco", palazzo Caetani is platea and the other side of the street is platea.
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