Viet Nam War

Global War deceptions & mass manipulation, fear-mongering terror schemes and propaganda in the Age of the Bomb

Re: Viet Nam War

Postby lux on September 27th, 2013, 4:26 am

Libero wrote:It figures...

Funny, I was just about to respond back to one of your posts in this thread where you said

Being “draft bait” myself during this period and being dead-set against participating in the military in general and the VN War in particular, I spent several years fending off and finally escaping the grasp of my Draft Board's conscription efforts...


I was thinking that with all of the negative imagery that the media was barfing out in the times along with the plethora of well-known anti-war folks and famous conscientious objectors that there must of been a hell of a lot of people that felt exactly the same way you did.


Yes, indeed, there were.

But alas, the draft was the law, so if you wanted to fight it, you likely needed an attorney. I imagine defending the people that didn't want to go was likely a windfall for the attorneys and even part of the game.


Those who tried to fight it with an attorney were rare and this was an expensive and risky avenue to pursue. It was more common (and cheaper) to fight it with a doctor who could attest that you were physically (or mentally) unfit for military service. Others just stayed in school as long as possible which provided a student deferment and then, when the draft lottery was instituted, managed to get lucky and draw a high lottery number.

And, a few hightailed it to Canada where they were allegedly given asylum and, I believe, later amnestied. Or, at least, that's what I heard.

But, of course, most just succumbed and were either drafted into the Army or joined another military service branch where battlefield grunt combat duty was less likely. This latter choice was evidently not easy to do at that time as the other services were picky and only took recruits with certain education or experience.
Last edited by lux on September 27th, 2013, 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Viet Nam War

Postby Libero on September 27th, 2013, 4:27 am

Hoi,

If I were to venture a best guess from the very little time I have given this sharp focus, I'd say it went down something like this:

The communist North appears to have been well under control of both China and the USSR (as bostonterrierowner has already mentioned as well.) It sort of gets back to our No Cold War, No problemo scenario. And remember, Ho Chi Minh has French ties and it appears that celebrities and media can rotate freely in and out in the North.

* Ellsberg looks to be one giveaway that The Gulf Of Tonkin story may be there to mislead (being fired upon from and firing against North Vietnamese ships.)

Ngo Dinh Diem looks to take power in the South in 1955 but may have been a puppet that forgot his strings (appears to spurn Western influence and wants independence, French evacuate, etc.) and was removed in 1963. Enter the self-immolation of the monk imagery and related 'reported' comments from members of the Diem gov. making a mockery of the event , etc. to get the support and backing for his removal.

(Edit: The whole Ngo Dinh Diem thing may have been a smokescreen from the start as well. In examining information leading up to the war -- specifically the wiki on Madame Nhu, the de facto First Lady of South Vietnam and seen here talking about the monk 'barbequing' incident, I find it hard to imagine such a well-spoken leader type talking so irresponsibly in front of the media, knowing of its power.)

The real fight was officially against the Viet Cong in the South which were reportedly made up of communists from the North, but I am wondering if they may have actually been mostly comprised of those thinking more along the recently removed leader's lines. Perhaps all of the anti-South imagery we have been examining also was meant to say to the Southern fighters "Look what's happening to your own people..."

The game plan perhaps might have been to paint the entire country red, and thus there was never an intention to "win" the war by removing the communists, and therefore also the reason for bowing to the anti-war folks' successful screams to get the U.S. out before it was actually "finished." Also interesting to note is Duong Van Minh's leading the South in 1963 immediately after Diem's removal and immediately prior to the South's surrender in 1975.

Tom Hayden (principal organizer of Students for a Democratic Society, multiple reported visits to the North, Chicago 8 participant, Jane Fonda's husband, blah, blah) in particular looks to have softened people to a communist victory in Vietnam. And Jane, herself snapped sitting on their 'guns.'

And with all of the fake imagery we are seeing, would the AP need to risk their reporter's lives in the field? I bet a whole bunch is fake, staged, whatever... perhaps even in the jungles to the North if that was even necessary at all?


Image


http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured/20 ... igon/1781/ <-- (Great page with tons of imagery.)

But, I may be completely wrong and off my rocker. Much of my interpretation depends on some of the reported information actually being taken at face value :).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Vietnam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngo_Dinh_Diem
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/indi ... indid=1334
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madame_Nhu
Last edited by Libero on September 27th, 2013, 9:58 pm, edited 17 times in total.
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Re: Viet Nam War

Postby MrSinclair on September 27th, 2013, 4:45 am

All kinds of methods were used to get out of the draft. In my older brothers case our family doctor was able to exploit an asymptomatic heart irregularity of no consequence to secure a deferment. At the time apparently orthodontic work could also left to a deferment and a orthodontist in my town faced criminal charges and had his career destroyed for putting otherwise unneeded (and unpaid for) braces on young men to help keep them out of the draft.

Some hurt themselves, some feigned craziness, some did their best to induce it.Back then any overt signs of homosexuality could keep one being drafted and some tried to fake it. Extreme bigotry was another potential out as was the biggie, conscientious objector: "One who on the basis of religious or moral principles refuses to bear arms or participate in military service." This was not easy to achieve as one had to demonstrate a consistent view against all wars and not just Vietnam.

Some left for Canada. Funny enough there were plenty who just never registered for the draft and just went about their lives and fell through the cracks of a less than completely efficient bureaucracy.
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Re: Viet Nam War

Postby Libero on September 27th, 2013, 5:06 am

It all makes sense... payments for services from Lawyers, Doctors, Dentists, Psychologists, Education, etc = massive economy stimulation.

And the ones that didn't do anything were all pardoned by Carter.

Why does not paying attention to the world often seem like the best life strategy? :D
Last edited by Libero on September 27th, 2013, 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Viet Nam War

Postby MrSinclair on September 27th, 2013, 5:15 am

Libero wrote:
Why does not paying attention to the world often seem like the best life strategy? :D


This has worked well for me in my life. When as a young man heard the phrase "it is easier to apologize afterwards than it is to get permission first" a light went on in my head... passive resistance and noncooperation are a beautiful thing...
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Re: Viet Nam War

Postby Libero on October 17th, 2013, 6:55 pm

The World Press Photo of the Year for 1963 was a slightly different version of the "Immolation of the Monk" Pulitzer winning imagery. It looks as though the fuel container has slightly melted and toppled over in this one and the flames have reduced in intensity. The monk appears to be sitting in about the same position, and his clothing does not appear to be burned away as of yet.

Image

Japanese photographer, Kyoichi Sawada was a back-to-back World Press Photo of the Year winner for '65 and '66 with the following imagery.

Image

Image


Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative journalist and author Seymour Hersh was yet another recipient of a Ridenhour prize a mere year after Daniel Ellsberg received his.

He first gained worldwide recognition in 1969 for exposing the My Lai Massacre and its cover-up during the Vietnam War, for which he received the 1970 Pulitzer Prize for International Reporting.


His 2004 reports on the US military's mistreatment of detainees at Abu Ghraib prison gained much attention.


Imagery from the Abu Ghraib torture and prison abuse scandal.

Image

Image


More on Seymour Hersh...

While working in Washington Hersh first met and befriended I. F. Stone, whose I. F. Stone's Weekly would serve as an initial inspiration for Hersh's later work.


-- "Isidor Feinstein Stone (December 24, 1907 – June 18, 1989), born Isidor Feinstein, better known as I. F. Stone and Izzy Stone, was an American investigative journalist and author." If you recall from Leonard Boudin's wiki a page ago, I.F. Stone also happens to be Boudin's brother-in-law.

In 1969, Hersh received a tip from Geoffrey Cowan of The Village Voice regarding an Army lieutenant being court-martialled for killing civilians in Vietnam.


-- "Geoffrey Cowan is an American lawyer, professor, author, and playwright.

Geoffrey Cowan was born on May 8, 1942, the son of Louis G. Cowan, former president of the CBS television network and professor at the Columbia School of Journalism, and Polly Spiegel Cowan, a TV and radio producer and a civil rights activist."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ridenhour_Prizes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib ... oner_abuse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I._F._Stone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Boudin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Cowan
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Re: Viet Nam War

Postby Libero on October 31st, 2013, 5:34 am

It looks like the Malcolm Browne "Immolation of the Monk" imagery, both the Pulitzer winner as well as the World Press Photo of the Year can be placed into the 'at minimum, tampered with' category. I found the video that evidently captures the event and have posted the link below.

Notice at approximately the :45 mark, the subject pouring the 'fuel' on the monk begins to place the fuel container on the ground, proceeds to bow, and then picks up the container at approximately the 1:00 mark and begins to move away from the monk, continuing to pour what would appear to be a trail comprised of fuel.

At 1:40 we witness a major dramatic scene transition and the flames are first viewed at about the 2:00 mark, however, the fuel container is easily visible next to the car, far away from the flames.

At 2:49 via a closer shot, the container is more easily seen next to the car. From the video we can also see that the 'trail of fuel' appears to be ignited and is seen burning toward the front of the car, consistent to where we had seen the subject pouring it. In the Pulitzer winning photo, the flame appears to be burning in a direction away from the car.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9l4ub ... B%A9c_news

Re-post of Pulitzer winner
Image
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thich_Quang_Duc

ScreenPrint from Video
Image
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Re: Viet Nam War

Postby ProperGander on October 10th, 2015, 2:00 am

Image

Jim Morrison of the Doors
"Morrison began writing in earnest during his adolescence. At UCLA he studied the related fields of theater, film, and cinematography"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Morrison

George_Stephen_Morrison
"In 1963, Morrison took command of the Essex-class aircraft carrier Bon Homme Richard (CVA-31), flagship of a 3rd Fleet Carrier Division in the Pacific, and based at Naval Air Station Alameda, California. Morrison was in command of the Carrier Division during the controversial Gulf of Tonkin Incident in August 1964, which resulted in a dramatic escalation of the Vietnam War"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Stephen_Morrison

Actors? A Hollywood event. No film or video needed, just a script repeated. Please note the mainstream source, wikipedia. I never heard about Mr. Morrison's dad the admiral until this, the 21st century, and that was after listening to the Doors for years, you'd think Oliver Stone might have mentioned it in his film about the music group.



A Voix Nue: Stanley Kubrick (Rare Radio Interview)


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvoxjkTNOXE

At around 54:00 Kubrik discusses Vietnam newsreel footage. He claims most troops were never involved in fighting. "Very few people saw action". 
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Re: Viet Nam War

Postby ICfreely on October 10th, 2015, 2:36 pm

ProperGander wrote:Actors? A Hollywood event. No film or video needed, just a script repeated.


Agreed! On a side note, Jim's band's name was inspired by Aldous Huxley's The Doors of Perception. And old Hoaxley, of course, was the man who spearheaded Tavistock's LSD agenda in the U.S.
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Re: Viet Nam War

Postby ProperGander on October 10th, 2015, 3:59 pm

Funny how 'coincidental' this all is... ;)

Let's get "Beyond The Doors' of Perception...

This a 'b' movie came out around the time Oliver Stone's JFK film.

Image

"This film tries to wring in a few bucks by stomping on the graves of not one, but THREE cold-as-a-mackerel celebs. So if your sensibilities can endure the ordeal of Buchanan’s wretched tabloid-style filmmaking, here’s what “really happened” to Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix and Jim Morrison, because this movie promises to blow the lid off the secret behind their deaths. Are you sitting down? No, they didn’t overdose—the U.S. government actually assassinated them! Honest! It was all a carefully constructed plot to “neutralize the three Pied Pipers of rock music.”"

I seem to recall this is a meme promoted by conspiracy theorists today, and it is another Hollywood creation. So many of the internet promoted conspiracy theories are nothing but old Hollywood fare. And just like with the continuous rerunning of World War Two imagery and documentaries, we have the same thing with the entire 1960's culture, including Vietnam. Oliver Stone seems to be the official mainstream mythological media gatekeeper for this subject does he not? At east that seemed to be his 'gig' back in the late 20th Century. Compare his version of a Vietnam film to Full Metal Jacket, which is a film that one might want to re-watch now if they haven't already, the Walt Disney reference is funny and telling.

" Bugliosi (1994) describes the popular view that the Manson case "sounded the death knell for hippies and all they symbolically represented," citing Joan Didion, Diane Sawyer, and Time. Bugliosi admits that although the Manson murders "may have hastened" the end of the hippie era, the era was already in decline." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... e_movement

Yet the tie-dies, the music and the art and the rest was only just beginning to 'infiltrate' the mainstream culture. The Grateful Dead were just starting to tour, and there were no gypsy like caravanning Dead Heads yet. The cultural phenomena was introduced in 1969 with these media events. This was the start of a cultural phenomena that was clearly designed and controlled and didn't happen by accident, nor did it simply come from the common 'folk. None of this was 'folk' art. Vietnam, a traumatic televised and printed event, would seem to have been contrived to make the public more easily accept the new culture the elite (or government) financed artists had concocted.

As an aside, World War Two gave us images of women doing men's work in the U.S.A., this would seem to be an example of how these events are used to alter the culture of a given society. The result and reason might be completely logical, the deception might be needed in some cases, where the mass public is too prejudiced by previous memes to 'switch gears' fast enough.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Kesey

http://dangerousminds.net/comments/beyo ... i_janis_an
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/27_Club

*Please note I am not saying the art is bad or not worth looking at or listening to or wearing. Allot of it is great. This is simply how sausage is made. Sure it would be great if we hadn't been misled with it all, but the idea that allot of what we are told is fact is actually fiction, sure makes the world a happier place to live in.
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Re: Viet Nam War

Postby ICfreely on October 10th, 2015, 5:13 pm

ProperGander wrote:Oliver Stone seems to be the official mainstream mythological media gatekeeper for this subject does he not?


The conscientious ivy-league undergrad dropped out in order to go to ‘Nam to see what was going on for himself (similar to Al Gore & John Kerry). I think he’s, in the least, one of the gatekeepers for this subject. Sean Stone is proudly following in his daddy’s footsteps. I’m sure we can expect Jr. to produce touching docu-dramas on the plight of the Iranian people. Disney social imagineering at its finest!

Oliver Stone's son converts to Islam in Iran
http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/15/world/meast/iran-stone-islam/index.html
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Re: Viet Nam War

Postby ProperGander on October 10th, 2015, 5:20 pm

ICfreely wrote:
ProperGander wrote:Oliver Stone seems to be the official mainstream mythological media gatekeeper for this subject does he not?


The conscientious ivy-league undergrad dropped out in order to go to ‘Nam to see what was going on for himself (similar to Al Gore & John Kerry). I think he’s, in the least, one of the gatekeepers for this subject. Sean Stone is proudly following in his daddy’s footsteps. I’m sure we can expect Jr. to produce touching docu-dramas on the plight of the Iranian people. Disney social imagineering at its finest!

Oliver Stone's son converts to Islam in Iran
http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/15/world/meast/iran-stone-islam/index.html



So in other words, he dropped out to go work on a film set with the rest. ;) That does make sense. He is certainly very good at drama and creating illusions on screen. These guys are just artists after all. They really do seem to try to ensure that nobody (nor even an animal) gets hurt during such productions. Of course I'm putting political considerations aside. So there is always the actual and real ramifications of events like Vietnam, with resulting treaties and laws and so on, that are more than just works of 'cultural art'.

Can the son, or his PR firm, lay it on any thicker?


"Olive Stone is a cool guy, he made JFK and told it like it is, we can trust him..."
"Disney social imagineering at its finest!"
Oliver Stone's Untold History of the United States, also known as The Untold History of the United States, is a 2012 documentary series directed, produced, and narrated by Oliver Stone
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_St ... ted_States
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Re: Viet Nam War

Postby ProperGander on October 10th, 2015, 6:06 pm

Image

" Bugliosi (1994) describes the popular view that the Manson case "sounded the death knell for hippies and all they symbolically represented," citing Joan Didion, Diane Sawyer, and Time. Bugliosi admits that although the Manson murders "may have hastened" the end of the hippie era, the era was already in decline." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... e_movement

During the Vietnam War era, LIFE Magazine promotes the hippie culture exactly when some claim it was ending. Clearly this is not the case.
I also didn't notice any reference to that nasty war in the pages of this magazine. That is interesting too, as perhaps this is meant as an escape from what was being shown on screens and newspaper front pages. One can lose oneself in buying into the new looks in fashion, or the exploration of outer space, or taking photographs with the new fangled flash cube, or maybe smoking a joint.


https://books.google.com/books?id=lkwEA ... 69&f=false


Of course LIFE Magazine is known for promoting things like this:
Image
Image
Image
Image

Image
Even Dog Day Afternoon, the Al Pacino film, has its origin in the pages of LIFE:
https://books.google.com/books?id=5VYEA ... 2.&f=false

Could this be another contrived event? If it is in the mainstream media, we have to ask this question. If it gets (re)made into a film, one has to wonder, especially with the meme of transsexualism promoted by this story. A meme echoed today.

"Dog Day Afternoon is a 1975 American crime drama film directed by Sidney Lumet, written by Frank Pierson, and produced by Martin Bregman and Martin Elfand. The film stars Al Pacino, John Cazale, Charles Durning, Chris Sarandon, Penelope Allen, James Broderick, Lance Henriksen, and Carol Kane. The title refers to the sultry "dog days" of summer.

The film was inspired by P.F. Kluge's article "The Boys in the Bank", which tells a similar story of the robbery of a Brooklyn bank by John Wojtowicz and Salvatore Naturale on August 22, 1972. This article was published in Life in 1972.

The film received critical acclaim upon its September 1975 release by Warner Bros., some of which referred to its anti-establishment tone. Dog Day Afternoon was nominated for several Academy Awards and Golden Globe awards, and won one Academy Award."

"After realizing they cannot make a simple getaway, Sonny demands that a helicopter be landed on the roof to fly him and Sal out of the country. When they are informed that the asphalt roof of the bank will not support a helicopter, Sonny demands that a vehicle drive him and Sal to an airport so that they can board a jet. He also demands pizzas for the hostages (which are delivered to the scene) and that his wife be brought to the bank. When Sonny's wife, Leon Shermer (Chris Sarandon), a pre-operative transsexual, arrives, he reveals to the crowd and officials one of Sonny's reasons for robbing the bank is to pay for Leon's sex reassignment surgery, and that Sonny also has an estranged divorced wife, Angie (Susan Peretz), and children."

"The Life article described Wojtowicz as "a dark, thin fellow with the broken-faced good looks of an Al Pacino or Dustin Hoffman". Hoffman would later be offered the role when Pacino briefly quit the production. An 18-year-old actor was originally to be cast in the role of Sal to match the age of the actual Salvatore. The table below summarizes the main cast of Dog Day Afternoon"


Odd coincidence that the cover of the magazine that introduces the reader to 'sex change operations' has an olympic athlete on it, considering the fate of Mr. Bruce Jenner some 40 odd years later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_Day_Afternoon


Meanwhile in Vietnam NEWS,

"May 1969 - The New York Times breaks the news of the secret bombing of Cambodia. As a result, Nixon orders FBI wiretaps on the telephones of four journalists, along with 13 government officials to determine the source of news leak."

"uly 25, 1969 - The "Nixon Doctrine" is made public. It advocates U.S. military and economic assistance to nations around the world struggling against Communism, but no more Vietnam-style ground wars involving American troops. The emphasis is thus placed on local military self-sufficiency, backed by U.S. air power and technical assistance to assure security.

July 30, 1969 - President Nixon visits U.S. troops and President Thieu in Vietnam. This is Nixon's only trip to Vietnam during his presidency."

"November 16, 1969 - For the first time, the U.S. Army publicly discusses events surrounding the My Lai massacre."

"July 14, 1972 - The Democrats choose Senator George McGovern of South Dakota as their presidential nominee. McGovern, an outspoken critic of the war, advocates "immediate and complete withdrawal."

July 18, 1972 - During a visit to Hanoi, actress Jane Fonda broadcasts anti-war messages via Hanoi Radio."

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstate ... -1969.html
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Re: Viet Nam War

Postby fbenario on October 11th, 2015, 9:09 pm

ProperGander wrote:Actors? A Hollywood event. No film or video needed, just a script repeated. Please note the mainstream source, wikipedia. I never heard about Mr. Morrison's dad the admiral until this, the 21st century, and that was after listening to the Doors for years, you'd think Oliver Stone might have mentioned it in his film about the music group.

If you didn't know Morrison's father was 'connected', you have a huge treat in front of you. Dave MacGowan's Laurel Canyon series is, after The Vicsim Report and all of CluesForum, the single best investigative analyses I've ever read:

http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/

On the first page of Part One, he discusses many of the important rockers who were also connected through family to the U.S. military/government/industrial machine, including Zappa, Stills, Crosby, John Phillips, Jackson Browne, and so on. Very eye-opening.

MacGowan also does a great job unpacking the Manson psyop, along with numerous other situations, such as the Lookout Mountain film factory at the top of Laurel Canyon Blvd.

Hope you enjoy it!
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Re: Viet Nam War

Postby ICfreely on October 12th, 2015, 8:17 am

Several years ago I was building a home in the Hollywood Hills. I had driven past the Lookout Lab many time but could never figure out what it was (abandoned school, hospital, etc.). It's a very creepy structure & just up the hill from Wonderland Elementary School. One of my laborers mentioned that he occasionally moonlighted as a lighting crew hand for porno shoots. He told me he had been to the Lab a half dozen times for gay porn shoots. I searched the interwebs & first came across Dave McGowan's 'Inside the LC' series and eventually CluesForum!!!

:)

P.S. The Lab also shortly served as a high-end rehab a few years ago and abruptly closed upon the death of a patient or two.
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