Ataraxia wrote:ReadytoBeDeployed, what do you say about the Swedish Vasa ship dating to 1630?
DATING?? DATED, by humans, wrongly schooled in an erroneous reading of the past.
Or your own Spanish La Capitana dating from 1650 and found shipwrecked off the coast of Spain by following old diaries of men who were on the ship
What?? I don't negate the ship. I say it has been MIS-DATED.
I'm amazed by your straw-man attacks and your obvious hiding of all the other points I raised. You surely have a strategy here.
If you had set a ship on your front lawn 500 years ago
You have no idea of the past. You have no real information, only SECONDARY EVIDENCE, HEARSAY.
You speak with such lightness of "imagine 500 years ago"...
You only knew your grandfathers, and hear their stories, you know a bit, the world was more rural, lots of movement from Europe to America, the legal and economic changes, some battles and wars they didn't like to talk about.
Before that. What? Who knows?
My great-grandfathers lived in the middle ages, they had their animals, their small artisan shop, they all lived in very small towns and at that time cities were very, very small, 20.000 habitants or so.
The thing is, you don't know the recent real past, you only know Hollywood or schoolbook style ancient mythical past, then... empty space, and today. You can't see how recent it all is, you have been compartmentalized.
They claim armours are a thing of the middle ages, but they were used even until WW1 in some non-western countries.
Kings in the 19th century are painted with armour, because it worked, and it was the time.
Medieval tournaments were happening in the late 18th century, and 19th century France, there are drawings of "middle age" knights of that time and you can see the mixture of 19th clothing and medieval armour.
You don't even know who created and start using the very word "middle ages"?
Are you aware of your lack of information in this area? Who organized our view of history into "middle ages" "renaissance", and so on? Who? When?
Some folks, like magicians who distract your attention, created new words, classification and faraway mythical past, and got your attention, so you all study for decades... a phantom past and don't give a damn about checking the real sources and the real past of our last 200 years.
Look at how they made you speak, "a ship dating ..." No, the ship doesn't speak, doesn't have a ghost, it's unknown, secret, to be interpreted by us with huge difficulty.
And because you can't travel back in time, slowly, year by year, as a ghost, you can make mistakes, moreover if politics and human error is involved.
You also say there's no proof of any of these voyages,You also say there's no proof of any of these voyages,
Excuse me? What the hell are you talking about?
To avoid you misreading me, please quote me instead of putting words in my mouth.
I said official history acknowledges there was no Spanish botanical expedition to America until the late 18th century.
There's "proof" of that voyage, but I'm sure if you check the papers you will say they never wrote a four digit current Christian date, but only a J788 or something like that, I found 820 as a date, in other places.
So there was an expedition, as they claim, but in their documents, in the writings there they weren't using the same calendar we are using now.
The majority of books of the late 19th century and beginning of the early 20th century don't have a date stamp on the first pages.
Weird, but somehow all the previous books have it.
It wasn't normal to stamp the date everywhere, it wasn't considered important or necessary, and at that era there was no unified calendar, so it was worthless.
In economics there was chaos, different coins, standard... in time today we have different time-zones... well, it isn't that hard to understand different cultures and countries were using different calendars!
Today the Chinese and the Muslims still have theirs!
but if you go to the archives of the Dutch West/East India Company or the British Maritime Museum
Excuse me, I just talked about the Spanish Maritime Museum, and explained that all painting there of Columbus and company are from the 19th century!
I visited them, I research and found again and again proof.
they have hundreds of thousands of the most boring documents
Yes, and I have thousands of them, scanned in my computer, and others read in person, and they all support my thesis.
Most of the time, there's no date at all, or a weird one, it's almost impossible to find the 4 digit current Christian date.
Even so, paper is very easily faked, there was a huge industry and many scandals in the "renaissance" and later, to the 19th.
Many of the now considered classical documents suffered heavy criticism at recent centuries, in the 19th there still was a huge debate regarding "new", "recovered" "found" "classical" books.
You just don't know that. They hide their weakness, their humiliation, ask historians about art fakery, about the fakery of the renaissance...
There are many books.
But historians don't want their vulnerabilities exposed.
detailing the smallest purchases in outfitting the ships, dating back to the 1600s.
Yes, and that data destroys the artificial history they gave us. In all the French navy of the late 18th century, there's not a single Christian name, NONE. All of the ships have pagan, Greek names. Only in the 19th century does the French navy finally gets ships with Christian names/references.
I know Wikipedia is easily faked, because all they need to do is click one button and they can change the truth, but are thousands upon thousands of these documents faked?
It's not hard, they get paid to do that, that's how court historians started, that's what they do in war, fake enemy's bill, enemy's passports, confessions... see Nuremberg or the British Special Forces infiltrating Germany.
They were the ones making the documents, they took control of the conquered country, including printing press, and materials, they had all the money and people, they had lot of time to create artificially aged paper, many people worked in that business, still do, like in painting.
And I thought this was cluesforum!
You say nobody would sail in such ships, but to sail the oceans all you need is a reliable floating platform and food and water
No, you need a good "travel experience" if you want more people to follow.
The British with their Lloyds and other "insuring agencies" know about that. They didn't conquered half the world with shitty caravels, they moved immediately to test, design and research more and better types of ships.
And my "national ego" is damaged here, I don't win anything here in terms of politics or national egoism, I'm taking away three centuries of "dominance" of "my country".
So I'm not selling anything for my benefit...
and if you reach the current it will move you forward even almost with no effort on your part.
That's true, but only part of the truth, another current, a storm may get in your way, and you may sink!
The current flows in that direction, great, but it's not guaranteed it will flow smoothly and peacefully with no interferences or surprises.
Look at the Kon-Tiki expedition as an example
Great man! Good. Look at him. He TESTED history, he despised historians and paper pushers, he went to CHECK THINGS OUT. Is that possible?
That's the attitude historians don't have and they don't want applied to history.
I guess you'd say the Vikings reaching North America is also faked,
Ataraxia wrote:And even if they did it later, as you might claim, they still did it in ships ostensibly less seaworthy than Colombus's caravels.
Maybe that's why they didn't settled it? Because it was a hard journey? Could have been a lonely lost ship, or some very crazy sailor.
There were hundreds of technological advancements made between the caravel and the galleon,
And? How is it necessary for these advancements to take three centuries and not one, or less? Please explain.
You're claiming a faster change in the past than we see in our lifetimes now.
I also said that now the powers that be are in control and have forced a stop, force feeding fake science, destroying the education, values, living, social life, intellectual curiosity, making people sick, vaccinated, irradiated, etc...
People were mostly free, strong, unpolluted, and with strong will and reasons to explore the unexplored, settle the unsettled, and race against their aggressive competitors.
Now, there's only one world-power, the jews, see them in banks, media, government, science self-giving prizes... and they want us weak and disarmed, physically and intellectually.
Development has been stopped artificially, censure, patents, boycott, bureaucracy, legal prosecution with excuses... an attitude against the free-thinkers, less wealth available in the middle class...
Even after this, we are changing A LOT, socially, see twitter, phones, stay at home with computers, globalization, English worldwide, immigration, feminism, tolerance....
We are way different than the 60's.
And the 10, or 20s generation of the 20th century even had duels in the universities, with sword, only made illegal in the 30s or 40s in Austria...
You say human development is very fast, but in 35 years, the area around here hasn't really changed that much,
? Madrid. During the civil war it was less than half million. Today, more than three million.
The neighbourhood I live in didn't exist during the civil war/ww2. It was empty, bushes, rocks, dirt. Today, kms and kms of recent buildings, 50 years or less.
The majority of the population lives in new buildings, less than a century old, only a few lucky rich guys live in old palaces or the very small city centre... You are not living in a three hundred years old house aren't you?
How much "history" is around you? Because as I said, it hasn't been preserved, old walls and towers were taken down. New York for example was unfortunately almost destroyed and rebuilt, building by building. They didn't give a fuck about the past or history, only money.
And I'm sure something easily changed, antennas, advertisement, phones, the attitude and speed of the people.
and we're at the height of all the greatest technological advancements. There hasn't been a new city built here in half a century at least,
The Chinese have been building for all of us. And in Europe the Spanish construction bubble has been epic.
where according to your theory we should be witnessing absolute and accelerated growth.
Ehm no. (Clever) Humanity grows fast after the deluge... only until a big enough number of humans, then it stops, because earth is finite and resources limited, we don't want to live like ants or bees, I enjoy free air and space.
So in the 19th century, lots of kids, in the 20th century, less kids, in the 21th, very few kids.
According to your theory life should be changing even faster than what we saw in the past, since the technological progress builds on itself and speeds advancement up
Up to a point, you work because you have necessities and are in danger, weak against nature, once you have enough, you enjoy life.
Why should you do things? We are already connected, internet, planes, highways... you can buy exotic foods or anything!
And the big changes, like electric cars are attacks on the economic powers that be, and national security threat, they are afraid of a possible new revolutionary technology/science starting in a not so controlled country, country that could free itself from the bankers and lead a world change...so, no changes, only small steps towards slavery and weakening of curiosity, resolve, virility, etc...
people are still inherently the same as they were 100 years ago
Sure, bring back to life the KKK, they will surely behave and be just like modern Gay New-Yorkers.
One thing I'm interested in though, is what came before the 1600s then? Nothingness? Eternal slavery?
The past was better and more free, in general. Before that there were no humans on Earth, the human spirit incarnated/materialized here very recently, a matter of centuries, that's one of the reasons they have to elongate history, to keep us believing we belong here, when we don't.
And why did it change if they had such absolute control over reality?
They don't, they are like magicians, they DISTRACT, but the real thing is happening, you just don't look at it because you only study Sparta, the Romans and so on, instead of going from the present, to the past slowly and with a Sherlock Holmes attitude. The events are there to easily reconstruct and understand. They can't erase it, they can only re-interpret. A war? Nope. A "fire", an "earthquake", a "plague".
Until Napoleon there was a "Holy Roman Empire" in Germany, it's there, the Roman Empire, in public view, but they move your attention to the 2000 year old Italian Roman empire.
It's like focusing all the attention on the 911 tv footage, it's fake, so focus on the ground, find other sources of information, analyse it through other angles...
Why are we even allowed to see how corrupt and worthless most of them were? Wouldn't they change the history to not let us know any of that? Wouldn't they make themselves God?
How many Mein Kampfs were printed and sold? Dozen of millions? Can they "fake it"? Why would they? They already convinced people not to read it, even not to sell it in many countries!
The majority of the population is afraid of that book, and believe very emotionally that it's evil and says so and so, without reading it.
In fact, many new editions have aggressive unfair "introductions" to such "evil text" and how to "interpret" it.
And some editions have been accused of having some inserted fragments, but that has been detected.
So, how would you, for example, "erase" Mein Kampf? How do you imagine it could be changed? They have limited power, they can brainwash with TV several countries, like America and send them to burn all the cities of Germany, but that's not very elegant or perfect.
They already achieved their objectives, and so well that you don't even know which objectives were those!