Advanced Building Technology in Remote Antiquity?

Historical insights & thoughts about the world we live in - and the social conditioning exerted upon us by past and current propaganda.
Seneca
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Re: Advanced Building Technology in Remote Antiquity?

Unread post by Seneca » Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:12 am

If you find the time could you provide some references or some of the claims in this last post?

for example:

"- The Phoenicians regularly crossed the Atlantic long before the Roman Empire and may have been the merchants supplying the Mediterranean smithies with American copper, making the Bronze Age possible"

(What was wrong with the copper mined in the ancient world?)

"- It [the Piri Reis map] was composed with the aid of spherical trigonometry, a technique not in use at the time. Interestingly, the geometric center of the map is in mid-Egypt. The Brazilian island of Marajó appears clearly on the map, although this region was only discovered by Europeans in 1543. The tip of South America is shown to be contiguous with Antarctica (a patchwork error), but Antarctica was only a hypothetical continent at the time."

I am quite skeptical of the methods used by Chales Hapgood to redraw the maps you mentioned to prove his claims. Did you know that Albert Einstein wrote the preface to his book "Earth's Shifting Crust"

Flabbergasted
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Re: Advanced Building Technology in Remote Antiquity?

Unread post by Flabbergasted » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:24 am

Seneca » October 15th, 2019, 6:12 am wrote:If you find the time could you provide some references or some of the claims in this last post?
I know some of my last posts have been lacking in references. This is because I have been writing mostly from memory and would have to set time aside to re-read stuff I read twenty years ago, applying the experience and analytical tools I have acquired since then.

I think the information about the presence of the Phoenicians in America, the mining of copper in the Great Lakes region, and the scarcity of natural copper deposits in Europe came from George Erikson, but I haven’t verified the claim that the latter deposits were insufficient to sustain the Old World copper industry.

The information about spherical trigonometry and the island of Marajó came from "Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings".

The information about the center of the Piri Reis map and about Antarctica being a "hypothetical continent" for centuries is from Wiki and Hapgood.

As for Hapgood, he has been criticized from all sides, perhaps deservedly, but that has not solved the enigma of the Piri Reis map. Sometimes accusations of factual ignorance or imperfect methods, though justified, have the effect of hiding the bigger picture. Of course, in other cases they can be fatal to the argument. I have not read "Earth's Shifting Crust", so I can’t comment on it at this moment.

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Re: Advanced Building Technology in Remote Antiquity?

Unread post by Flabbergasted » Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:17 pm

Altair » October 14th, 2019, 6:30 am wrote:Also in Japan, you can find the Yonaguni monument. Harder to research as it is underwater, but it's quite similar to those constructions.
Image

I didn’t mention it in the post about Japan because I am not fully convinced it is manmade. It does look like it has steps and terraces in some places and is in a location which would have been on dry land during the ice age (15,000+ years ago), but I can’t see how (and for what sort of body) it would have been remotely useful, and we would also have to rule out geological processes first, for which I have no competence.

Image
Giant's Causeway in Northern Ireland: the combination of crystal structure and environmental factors can produce shapes that look nearly manmade.

On the other hand, there is also a carved red sandstone mountain in the jungle of Samaipata, Bolivia, about which you can ask similar questions. And the shapes at Yonaguni are not so different "stylistically" from pieces like the Intihuatana at Machu Picchu. So it’s definitely worth keeping an eye on what divers are finding.

Image

Seneca
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Re: Advanced Building Technology in Remote Antiquity?

Unread post by Seneca » Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:08 am

Flabbergasted » 15 Oct 2019, 13:24 wrote: The information about the center of the Piri Reis map and about Antarctica being a "hypothetical continent" for centuries is from Wiki and Hapgood.

As for Hapgood, he has been criticized from all sides, perhaps deservedly, but that has not solved the enigma of the Piri Reis map. Sometimes accusations of factual ignorance or imperfect methods, though justified, have the effect of hiding the bigger picture. Of course, in other cases they can be fatal to the argument. I have not read "Earth's Shifting Crust" so I can’t comment on it at this moment.
Thanks for the info.
I don't quite agree. If you take the Piri Reis map without the corrections that Hapgood suggests there is no real enigma. I see no reason to think the maker had access to a map that was more accurate than the maps that were known. I see no reason to think that it shows Antarctica. I find it more likely that he tried to map the southern coast of South America as is suggested in the following images. These are 2 different hypotheses, I prefer the second. Another hypothesis is that that part of the map is based on fantasy.

Image
Image

If he really had access to maps that allowed centuries of trade between the old and new world, I think he could produce a much more accurate map. The northern coast of America is depicted rather accurately, but the rest is quite a mess.

As for the map of Orontaeus Finaeus: because of the way the 2 maps are presented (the modern one rotated and enlarged) they seem to match somewhat.

Image
Left: Orontaeus Finaeus. Right: modern map.

But I think the following image shows what happens when they are superimposed without changing the size and with the same orientation:
Image

The continent on the modern map is a lot smaller than on the older map and there are not a lot of similarities. You can check that the orientation of the modern map is now similar to that of the older map by comparing it with another one that also shows the continents of South America and Africa. We see that the long Antarctic Peninsula is pointing towards South America just as in the superimposed image.

Image

So here too I don't see a reason to believe the maker had accces to an advanced map.

But I do agree with you that the similarities in building technology between cultures separated by vast expanses of sea in remote antiquity suggest that they were at least able to communicate. There is a lot of evidence that points to this of which only the evidence for Norse trans-oceanic contact is not attacked by mainstream scientists.

To give you one other example: In his book "Where Troy once stood", Iman Jacob Wilkens argues that Homer's Odyssey contains a hidden oral map for navigating the Atlantic Ocean to ports in Senegal, Cape Verde Islands, the Caribbean and Cuba. For example, according to Wilkens and Theóphile Cailleux, Homer's detailed description of the harbor of Telepylos (which just means far-off gate) can only correspond to the harbor of Havana in Cuba.

Altair
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Re: Advanced Building Technology in Remote Antiquity?

Unread post by Altair » Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:29 pm

Sorry for 'derailing', but this has reminded me of the 'expanding Earth' hypothesis. According to it, the generally accepted plate tectonics theory is only partially true. Yes, it seems evident that Africa and Europe were once together (their shape makes it quite evident), but in fact the same happens with Anctartica, Australia, and Africa. And over the Pacific Ocean with Australia and America, and Australia and New Guinea and the Bay of Bengal. Just play a bit with Google Earth to see the matching coastlines.
So it could be that in its early stages, there were no seas in the Earth and as it gradually expanded, the continents began to separate. Think of inflating a balloon with a coat of paint.

Seneca
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Re: Advanced Building Technology in Remote Antiquity?

Unread post by Seneca » Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:38 pm

Altair » 16 Oct 2019, 17:29 wrote:Sorry for 'derailing', but this has reminded me of the 'expanding Earth' hypothesis. According to it, the generally accepted plate tectonics theory is only partially true. Yes, it seems evident that Africa and Europe were once together (their shape makes it quite evident), but in fact the same happens with Anctartica, Australia, and Africa. And over the Pacific Ocean with Australia and America, and Australia and New Guinea and the Bay of Bengal. Just play a bit with Google Earth to see the matching coastlines.
So it could be that in its early stages, there were no seas in the Earth and as it gradually expanded, the continents began to separate. Think of inflating a balloon with a coat of paint.
I think I get your point. If the oceans where much smaller in the past, trans-oceanic travel would be less of a problem. But it seems to me that for a civilization that is able to build such monuments, transporting heavy loads across great distances, trans-oceanic travel would not be such a big deal.

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Re: Advanced Building Technology in Remote Antiquity?

Unread post by Flabbergasted » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:49 pm

Seneca » October 16th, 2019, 8:08 am wrote:If you take the Piri Reis map without the corrections that Hapgood suggests there is no real enigma.
Thanks for the input and update on the Piri Reis map. I will comment later.

For now I´d like to share a fascinating essay on traditional Polynesian open sea navigation. It was not written by an academic or anthropologist, but by a sailor, and boy does it make a difference! James Barr worked as a deckhand and cook on freighters in the eighties. He was eventually given access to some of the secrets of Polynesian navigation, in part because he had learned the local language so well. The essay shows that the practical and technical aspects of sailing are merely the external, visible dimension of a truly spiritual art which it takes a lifetime to master.

I am not suggesting our hypothetical advanced engineers in remote antiquity sailed in this manner, but I wouldn´t be surprised if most non-Christian traditional cultures within historical times had somewhat similar navigational sciences. Unfortunately, the finer elements of a body of knowledge and art like that are very quickly and irremediably lost when the modern Western lifestyle is inoculated.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q4a2rjgmobext1y/Barr.pdf?dl=0
(Published in Avaloka III, #1 & 2, 1988-89)

Seneca
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Re: Advanced Building Technology in Remote Antiquity?

Unread post by Seneca » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:19 pm

Flabbergasted » 05 Oct 2019, 01:26 wrote: Image
This structure leading up to Unas’ pyramid is the best surviving example of a causeway, although a few remnants have apparently been found near the Great Pyramid. It looks like a waterway to me. Note the split roof. It is certainly ancient advanced building technology despite the “softer” material employed.
The following is an interesting hypothesis of how the huge stones for the construction of the Great Pyramid of Giza (a.k.a. Khufu/Cheops) can be both transported from the quarry to the building site and put in to place using the water of the Nile. It also explains why the casing stones and the stones of the causeway had to fit so precisely.
THE mystery surrounding how the ancient Egyptians built the pyramids may have been solved by a Derbyshire builder.

While holidaying in Egypt, Ashbourne construction firm boss Chris Massey argued with the tour guide about how giant blocks weighing several tonnes could be transported and placed with such accuracy.

If limestone blocks were dragged up a mud brick ramp to be placed at the top of the Great Pyramid, where is the evidence of this huge ramp? How could materials such as wooden rollers and mud bricks take the strain put on them by tons of stone? Thousands of men are supposed to have dragged the building blocks across the desert in the searing heat – how did the ancient project managers keep morale up amongst the dusty and tired workforce?

Approaching the problem of building a pyramid as construction contractor, he may have come up with a theory that helps explain a conundrum that has baffled the finest minds for thousands of years.

Mr Massey decided the best way to get the job done on time and on budget would be to use the nearby Nile, papyrus plants and inflated animal skins to float building materials into place.
Here is a video that explains the theory:

full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1y8N0ePuF8

Image

As for the tools that were supposedly being used:
"When limestone is first quarried, it is a relatively soft rock, which hardens when exposed to CO2 in the atmosphere." By placing the blocks straight into water after their release from the quarry face, the stone will stay softer and more easily worked with copper tools. " (2:22)
see also here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGH93mt ... e=youtu.be

I wonder if they could have used certain acids to soften the rock.

Mansur
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Re: Advanced Building Technology in Remote Antiquity?

Unread post by Mansur » Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:56 pm

What this “full-time archeologist” had to say about the Paracas skulls may sound rather “sciency” (these are his own words), but what he says about the presentation that is to say about Brien “we clearly see” Foerster, I think his judgment is even very mild and restrained:

https://ahotcupofjoe.net/2017/04/elonga ... t-mystery/

-------------------------
Flabbergasted » September 18th, 2019, 8:57 pm wrote: In any case, the scenario of cave-dwelling ice-age hominids needs some serious revision!
This could perhaps be approached rather directly. For example in this way:
Prehistoric cave art appears to be fake... all of it
https://www.stolenhistory.org/threads/p ... of-it.198/
Each and every discovery seems to be complete (really quite dino-like) comedy.

(In this old post, nonhocapito seems to accept that there are originals which could then be faked.
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1120&hilit=archeology#p2360680 )

As to paleoanthropology, I don’t know but expect the same. Strange but without causing any surprise is the Jesuits’ extreme activity one finds everywhere in these fields, at least in the time when the false debate had to be created between evolutionism and “creationism”.
Flabbergasted » September 20th, 2019, 3:53 pm wrote:
sharpstuff wrote:Personally, I await any further developments on your work. A new thread on archaeological lines might be useful (given the 'dinosaur' thread).
I would be happy to add to the topic, but I figured it was too far removed from our focus on media fakery to become a thread.
The thread is in truth far removed from it - but not the topic itself!

Peter
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Re: Advanced Building Technology in Remote Antiquity?

Unread post by Peter » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:00 pm

Presumably electricity was the energy used for the machines cutting the megaliths and this raises the question of how the electricity was obtained? Most likely from the atmosphere. The buildings appeal to us so presumably made by human or near human.

I don’t trust anything from the Egyptian pyramids as that is what is solely pushed on us, for centuries. And so much of what is pushed about ancient Egypt is demonstrably false. But look closer to home, at grand old town halls / museums / universities in many American and European towns, the impressive “Greco Roman style”. We couldn’t build those today, technologically or economically. But we are told that we built them in the 19th and early 20th century. The amazing detail and intricate stone work. History doesn’t make sense and must be mainly a lie. A town holding large public funding appeal for a simple, miserable civil war memorial, and a few years later one of these huge, detailed and fantastic old buildings is built in the same town, going on official dates.

I think they are relatively recent builds. Just not by us. So I don’t trust dates or time periods. Herodotus has been quoted a lot but maybe ancient Greek and Rome was just before the Renaissance and maybe those cultures weren’t even based in Greece or Rome.

Check JonLevi out for ancient buildings
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5vXBf ... &flow=grid

And Philipp Druzhinin for the flooding that must have happened, leaving alluvium making first floor windows of old buildings half underground
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIZoTg ... &flow=grid

And D. P. for the historical timeline (not colorfully produced like the above guys but he makes good points)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnU7qJ ... MoQ/videos

And a word about the ease of hoaxing history. Churchill, Roosevelt and DeGaul all wrote histories of WW2. None of these books mention the Holocaust. Because it didn’t happen. In the 1960s the Readers Digest hired leading Jewish academics to write a history of the Jewish people. In this series the Holocaust was not mentioned. Because it didn’t happen. TPTB just hadn’t written this particular hoax in to their WW2 hoax yet. (There were the odd few who pretended 6 mill died etc before this but they were considered cranks and ignored. No “evidence” had yet been created – maybe those odd few were laying psychological groundwork)

By the 1970s anybody who questioned the Holocaust was ultimate evil. It wasn’t the that majority didn’t believe in the Holocaust but were too frightened to say. They did believe in it. Simple brainwashing over a short period of time, using control of all media, schools, universities etc, in a combined effort.

“History is bunk”.

Peter
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Re: Advanced Building Technology in Remote Antiquity?

Unread post by Peter » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:09 pm

Flabbergasted have a look at this video where she talks about Giant's Causeway in Northern Ireland. You’ll find it absolutely fasinating, but you must be patient and give it time, as it takes time to get going (which is actually a very clever and necessary way to gently remove peoples conditioning).

For those not believing in flat earth don’t worry about the title. FE is not mentioned once in the video. The original upload didn’t even have the same title. This is a redubbing in English.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz_vx6GNlgg

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Re: Advanced Building Technology in Remote Antiquity?

Unread post by Flabbergasted » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:06 pm

Peter wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:00 pm
... I think they are relatively recent builds. Just not by us. So I don’t trust dates or time periods.
...“History is bunk”.
Peter, there are so many things mixed into that post that I will need a short vacation to comment.

I agree history is manipulated in many ways and riddled with hoaxes, but it´s not useful to lump it all together, Holocaustian lore and standing Cathedrals. And let´s not forget that earlier cultures independent of modern Western beliefs, interests and media fakery kept their own detailed records and built their own impressive temples. I have already mentioned the example of the golden age of Muslim civilization (from around 800 to 1200 AD).

Also, as I mentioned back in the first post on this thread, the so-called "advanced building technology in remote antiguity" is characterized technically by the perfect cutting and/or polishing and/or fitting of large stone blocks measuring 7 on the Mohs scale of hardness. No such material was used as a structural component in lapidated form in "grand old town halls" (which could certainly be replicated today, if desirable) spanning from Vergil to Wordsworth. Marble, for example, is usually soft and malleable (3 on the Mohs scale) though it may appear as hard as diorite to our senses. So again, lumping all old and ancient grand constructions together is not helpful.

This short post is not an analysis of your points, just a quick reply. I haven't even checked out your links yet. But I will.

While I do that: it sounds like you think historical events are generally very recent, that is, falsely presented as ancient. How do you square that with the observation of Halley's Comet documented independently by different cultures over the past 2,200 years, as shown in Simon´s latest post?

Peter
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Re: Advanced Building Technology in Remote Antiquity?

Unread post by Peter » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:07 am

Flabbergasted wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:06 pm
No such material was used as a structural component in lapidated form in "grand old town halls" (which could certainly be replicated today, if desirable)
If they could be built today why aren't they? Plenty of billionaires. You should really see some JonLevi videos. If one has been brainwashed to think we built them then the obvious belief is that we could easily build them again. The early settlers to the US found these buildings already there and usually "sunk" by a few feet due to alluvium build up.

I spoke to a builder who didn't know anyone that could do it. He thought that the skills had been lost because of lack of demand, which I think is a bit naive. There must have been thousands of such skilled craftsmen at the time because there are so many of these buildings. Now we don't have one such craftsman or the necessary tools. We can patch these buildings up but we use different techniques and materials.
Watch this video, there are several very aware professional builders in the comments making relevant points. Better listen to them than me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_dHMV6umCs

Flabbergasted wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:06 pm
I agree history is manipulated in many ways and riddled with hoaxes, but it´s not useful to lump it all together, Holocaustian lore and standing Cathedrals.
I thought it incredible how public perception can be made to undergo such massive change, that's why I mentioned the Holocaust. Perception change could have easily happened many times in the past, to create a reset, after a huge flood for example.

Flabbergasted wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:06 pm
So again, lumping all old and ancient grand constructions together is not helpful.
I'm just saying that I think we have been ruled by the same bunch (whoever they are, we only see their freemason step-and-fetch-its) for a long time and therefore we have been lied to for a long time. However there is a remarkable similarity in style with many worldwide buildings as shown in this video, which suggests a worldwide culture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq24xIxrA3k

Flabbergasted wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:06 pm
While I do that: it sounds like you think historical events are generally very recent, that is, falsely presented as ancient. How do you square that with the observation of Halley's Comet documented independently by different cultures over the past 2,200 years, as shown in Simon´s latest post?
Not all history is closer together than the official narrative. But much is. We have changed our calendar system many times and each time has been a timeline reset. Anatoly Fomenko states that using cosmology to determine historical timeline is useful
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbQMplPvA7k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNYIIPkzdEE

patrix
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Re: Advanced Building Technology in Remote Antiquity?

Unread post by patrix » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:40 am

Michael Cremo: "Forbidden Archaeology"


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKfGC3P9KoQ

Published on Oct 7, 2014
Michael A. Cremo
Historian of Archeology

Abstract:
Over the past two centuries, archaeologists have found bones, footprints, and artifacts showing that people like ourselves have existed on earth for many millions of years. But many scientists have forgotten or ignored these remarkable facts. Why? Primarily because they contradict the now dominant evolutionary views about human origins and antiquity. According to these views, humans like ourselves have existed for only about 100,000 or 200,000 years, and before that there were only more primitive human ancestors. This evolutionary paradigm, to which influential groups of scientists are deeply committed, has acted as a "knowledge filter." And the filtering, intentional or not, has left us with a radically incomplete set of facts for building our ideas about human origins. Recovering the complete set of facts takes us on a fascinating expedition, across five continents to various archaeological sites, some long forgotten, some the center of ongoing controversy. On the other hand, the complete set of facts is consistent with the accounts of extreme human antiquity found in the Puranas, the historical writings of ancient India.

Bio:
Michael A. Cremo is research associate in history of archeology. He is a member of the World Archaeological Congress (WAC) since 1993. His WAC3 paper "Puranic Time and the Archaeological Record" was published in the Routledge One World Archaeology series volume Time and Archaeology (1999), edited by Tim Murray. He is also a member of the European Association of Archaeologists (EAA). In 2004 Cremo's paper "The Later Discoveries of Boucher de Perthes at Moulin Quignon and Their Impact on the Moulin Quignon Jaw Controversy," presented at the XXth International Congress for History of Science, Liege, Belgium, was published in a conference proceedings volume of this congress, by the scientific publisher Brepols.

Cremo is the principal author of the book Forbidden Archeology, a comprehensive historical survey of archaeological anomalies. In a review in British Journal for History of Science, Tim Murray said the book "provides the historian of archaeology with a useful compendium of case studies in the history and sociology of scientific knowledge, which can be used to foster debate within archaeology about how to describe the epistemology of one's discipline."

Cremo is particularly interested in examining the history of the archeology from the standpoint of alternative worldviews, particularly worldviews with foundations in ancient Indian thought. He has given invited lectures on his work at the Royal Institution in London, the anthropology department of the Russian Academy of Sciences in Moscow, the archeology department of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences, and many other scientific institutions. He has also lectured on his work at universities throughout the world.

Flabbergasted
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Re: Advanced Building Technology in Remote Antiquity?

Unread post by Flabbergasted » Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:05 pm

patrix wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:40 am
Michael Cremo: "Forbidden Archaeology"
Thanks for bringing up Cremo´s book. I read it very thoroughly when it came out and I can assure potential readers of two things: there is nothing superficial about it, and there is not a single reference to religion (Hindu or otherwise) anywhere in the entire text.

Interestingly, back in the late 19th century and early 20th century, the case for human evolution from apes was based on archeological evidence of very poor reporting quality. On the other hand, contemporary evidence for extreme human antiquity (the so-called 'anomalous evidence') was swept under the rug even when the reporting quality was high. A perfect example of double standard. For instance, the story about how Java Man was "discovered" and marketed is hilarious. I will try to find some time to summarize it in a post.

Back in the nineties I read a scorching review of Cremo´s book, written by a professional archeologist. The reviewer mentioned flaws and shortcomings which made it clear he had never actually read the book. I took it up with him. At first he admitted having read "only some 60%". In his second exchange he admitted having read much less than that (my guess is, just the index on Amazon.com). In his third exchange he became quite friendly and even invited me to visit his field school in Africa. The material compiled and analyzed by Cremo was never addressed.

Here is an excerpt from a letter he sent me:
While some aspects of the book are interesting, I have also found that the authors' interpretations of the basic data are far removed from those of the original investigators - especially with regard to fossil evidence for human evolution.

If she has the time, I will ask Dr. Maeve Leakey (head of Archaeology, Kenya National Museums) to comment on the relevant sections (or her husband Richard, who is now preoccupied with non-Anthropological matters) since they both are original investigators who have been misrepresented. We run a field school in Kenya each Spring (one is in the field now) and Dr. Leakey is heading our Anthropology/Archaeology courses. However, I doubt either will dignify the publication with criticism since the important sources of such for field workers are those of their peers.
Case closed.

It would probably be disrespectful of me to label him a watchdog of the Leakeys, but the fact that he attempted to discredit in public a very comprehensive study he had never read, brandishing his background as a professional archeologist, and expressed no intention of examining the material then or in the future, or even seriously discuss it with his mentors, does point to a defensive and ideological stance rather than healthy scientific curiosity.

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