The SSSS - early musings - 2013>2015

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Re: The SSSS

Do you remember this diagram?

http://www.windows2universe.org/mars/mars_orbit.html

In this heliocentric view, the dates when the white lines Earth-Mars are parallel correspond with the mayan sidereal periods.
agraposo
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Re: The SSSS

simonshack wrote:Basically, what you are saying is this:

- If an earthly observer watches the Sun and Mars in June (with Earth tilted by +23,5° towards the Sun) as they are straight ahead of the observer - he will see them both at the same elevation.

- When this earthly observer watches the Sun and Mars in December, (with Earth tilted -23,5° away from the Sun) and Mars and the Sun are separated laterally by 5 hours of Right Ascension, Mars will appear to the earthly observer to be 16° higher in the sky than the Sun.

Sorry - but this doesn't work out for me. Try to imagine watching two airplanes flying (at the same altitude) at the very far edges, East and West of your horizon. Now, imagine that Earth suddenly tilts downward by "X" degrees. Would this make one of the two planes appear to fly at higher altitude than the other? It doesn't matter in which position Mars is in its orbit: its orbit is always supposed to be, in the Copernican model, almost level (+/1,85°) with the Sun, at all times. Yet, this is evidently not the case.

In this context, you say:
simonshack wrote:It doesn't matter in which position Mars is in its orbit: its orbit is always supposed to be, in the Copernican model, almost level (+/1,85°) with the Sun, at all times.

Correct, but remember that the Sun and Mars move along the ecliptic (white circle in the following diagrams), and that the ecliptic is not parallel to the celestial equator (blue circle in the following diagrams), and that the celestial equator is not parallel to the horizon (except in the poles), and that the declination (black lines) is the angle measured with respect to the celestial equator. So, as the Sun and Mars move along the ecliptic, the declination changes at different rates, as they move along the ecliptic at different speeds.

Position of Mars and Sun in June (I have painted Mars as a red dot):

Position of Mars and Sun in December:

http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/animations/coordsmotion/sunmotions.html
agraposo
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Re: The SSSS

*

"WHAT WE ALL KNOW - FOR SURE"

Do not worry - or perhaps, for some of you - do not rejoice quite yet.

I haven't abandoned - far from it - my 'mad' pursuit exploring our planetary system and my humble attempts to understand and (hopefully) resolve - mostly for myself, I guess - the many oddities and plain aberrations that the currently, universally-accepted Copernican / Keplerian model presents - at a closer inspection. I will soon expound my evolving research on the matter but for now, let me just ask you to read this short article which pretty much sums up what "WE ALL" are currently supposed to believe as regards our universe - and how this whole affair was, evidently and without appeal, "wrapped up" by one man, Johannes Kepler:

How Johannes Kepler Helped Land “Curiosity” On Mars
http://suhailrafidi.wordpress.com/2012/ ... y-on-mars/

The article is chock-full of "gems", in my opinion, but I will resist the temptation to list them all. Please just read the article if you are interested in this topic and make your mind up for yourself about its claims - and its 'academic' / cock-sure tone, purporting to convey 'firmly established knowledge'.

Here's perhaps my - ehrm - favorite paragraph of this 'intellectual' piece of writing:

"How To Test This Sort Of Thing?
Kepler’s model of planetary motion was not tangibly proved until centuries later when our satellites, ships, and rovers were dispatched to explore our moon, as well as Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the outer planets, and their moons. Based on Kepler’s work, we can jettison spacecraft toward the other planets, and in some cases even land on them within a few kilometers of our target. (Evidenced several times over the decades by our repeated successful interplanetary missions, and again this past week by Curiosity’s landing on Mars.)"

And here's my favorite sentence/ title of that article:

"How Did Your Universe Change In 1601? Tycho Brahe Died."

The author goes on describing Tycho Brahe more or less as a drunkard - who eventually killed himself due to excessive partying. No mention is made of the fact that Tycho's body was exhumed twice (in 1901 and in 2010): the first time, it was concluded that Tycho had clearly been poisoned - and Kepler was cited as suspect N°1 of the crime. The second time, we learn from the well-written article linked below, "the event received extensive international media coverage. A team of filmmakers from the Danish Broadcasting Corporation followed the entire project closely." This time round, however, it was officially "ruled out" (by archeologist Jens Vellev of the Aarhus University of Denmark) that Kepler had been poisoned. So go figure - and go choose your own truth...

http://atlantisrisingmagazine.com/2013/ ... cho-brahe/

My next post will be another 'rant' about Kepler - so please bear with me for a little longer, as I'd like to share a bit more of what I've read of him - and about the guy. I know, it probably sounds inappropriate for me to go "Kepler-bashing" - at a time when I'm attempting to reinstate the theories of his employer & arch-rival (and mostly unknown Giant of astronomy) Tycho Brahe. But please don't call me a Kepler-hater. I'm a Universe-lover!
simonshack

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Re: The SSSS

*

Wow. "The North Star closer than thought"... hmmm... by how much, you say?

North Star Closer to Earth Than Thought
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/12/121204-north-star-distance-closer-solar-system-space-science/

"The North Star has been a guiding light for countless generations of navigators. But a new study reveals that its distance to Earth may have been grossly overestimated."

"In fact, the North Star—also called Polaris—is 30 percent closer to our solar system than previously thought, at about 323 light-years away, according to an international team who studied the star's light output."

"Using Russia's 6-Meter Telescope, the researchers were able to calculate the North Star's distance from our solar system by analyzing its spectrum of light and obtaining data on its temperature and changes in intrinsic brightness over time."

"That significantly revises the previously accepted value of 434 light-years, which was obtained by the European star-mapping satellite Hipparcos in the 1990s."

"The new discovery of a closer North Star is "most unexpected for what is considered to be one of the Hipparcos satellite's most solid results," said study leader David Turner, an astronomer at Saint Mary's University in Halifax, Nova Scotia."

Hipparcos? The famed, high -precision ESA satellite? Got it wrong by a whopping / astronomical 30% ??? Really?

"Hipparcos was a scientific satellite of the European Space Agency (ESA), launched in 1989 and operated until 1993. It was the first space experiment devoted to precision astrometry, the accurate measurement of the positions of celestial objects on the sky.[1] This permitted the accurate determination of proper motions and parallaxes of stars, allowing a determination of their distance and tangential velocity. When combined with radial-velocity measurements from spectroscopy, this pinpointed all six quantities needed to determine the motion of stars.

The resulting Hipparcos Catalogue, a high-precision catalogue of more than 118,200 stars, was published in 1997. The lower-precision Tycho Catalogue of more than a million stars was published at the same time, while the enhanced Tycho-2 Catalogue of 2.5 million stars was published in 2000. Hipparcos‍ '​ follow-up mission, Gaia, was launched in 2013.

The word "Hipparcos" is an acronym for High precision parallax collecting satellite..."
[bla---bla---bla]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipparcos

Oh well - I guess we'll have to revise our entire solar system then. I'm actually hard at work doing just that !
simonshack

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Re: The SSSS

How far is it to Mars?

The parallax method is the fundamental calibration step for distance determination in astrophysics; however, the accuracy of ground-based telescope measurements of parallax angle is limited to about 0.01 arcsecond, and thus to stars no more than 100 pc distant.[8] This is because the Earth’s atmosphere limits the sharpness of a star's image.[9] Space-based telescopes are not limited by this effect and can accurately measure distances to objects beyond the limit of ground-based observations. Between 1989 and 1993, the Hipparcos satellite, launched by the European Space Agency (ESA), measured parallaxes for about 100000 stars with an astrometric precision of about 0.97 milliarcsecond, and obtained accurate measurements for stellar distances of stars up to 1000 pc away.[10][11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsec

edit:

Simon perhaps you should be having a closer look at "ESA".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Jacques_Dordain
Impressive huh?

http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Obser ... entinel-2A

http://www.esa.int/var/esa/storage/imag ... mage_2.jpg

http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?i ... aca1.79641
brianv
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Re: The SSSS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Jacques_Dordain
Impressive huh?

"Jean-Jacques Dordain (born April 14, 1946) is the current Director General of the European Space Agency and has held the position since 2003."

This guy's been Director General for 12 years, he's had a Wikedpedia entry for 10 years, and they can only come up with six sentences for him, including the one previous? Amazing.
HonestlyNow
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Re: The SSSS

Almost like a chocolate Easter egg, the two halves [somewhat 'flat' looking...] open to show the nicely gold wrapped 'extra-special' chocolate treat inside.
pov603
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Re: The SSSS

Anal Emma sounds like fun, how do I meet her?

More seriously though, I'd like to state my opinion of the SSSS theory. Mind, it is just an opinion, and we've all heard about those...

Kudos to Simon for daring to think out of the box, trust his own reason, and publish his findings, unafraid. That deserves respect. However, I find the theory unconvincing, for two reasons.

The problems that the SSSS is trying to solve are easily solved by geometry in the heliocentric model, particularly the shape of the Analemma. If you don't get it and still see a problem, well, not much one can do about that, is there?

Secondly, the plausibility, balance of probabillities. So here we have Earth, nicely sunbathing by the Sun in a little orbit all of its own, while the rest of the universe is made of one-thing-orbiting-another, and there is nothing like the Earth out there... Doesn't seem likely.

There are plenty of anomalies in the Standard Model of gravity, the Solar System, the Universe, but whether the Earth orbits the Sun is not one of them. That said, I kind of envy Simon. If he really believes in his theory, then he's in an enviable position. He know what he knows, and is untouched by whatever BS may pique the curiosity of the rest of us. Quite a nice, peaceful way to be!
DrTim
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Re: The SSSS

DrTim wrote:There are plenty of anomalies in the Standard Model of gravity, the Solar System, the Universe, but whether the Earth orbits the Sun is not one of them.

Dear Dr Tim,

You seem to be enviably comfortable with the Copernican theory, wherein the Earth orbits the Sun at hypersonic speeds - and performs a yearly circle (with a 300.000.000 km diameter) around the sun - all while our Northern and Southern stars remain totally stationary above our poles! Good on you! You should try to apply for an Associated Press job - or the like. They will soon need folks with your faith in the 'established science'.

Your comment is pretty timely - as I am soon about to gently close this thread (which has been a great learning curve for me - and I hope for others too!) and open a brand new one - which I'll probably just title "THE TYCHO/SSSS", since I have gradually come to realize that all I have been doing is to try and validate Tycho Brahe's (all-too-dismissed) lifetime efforts. Oh yes, I have long abandoned my early "SSSS" model which, again, I can only describe as a quite useful learning process - and I wish to thank this thread's contributors (especially our member 'agraposo') for bearing with my spatial musings and helping me along to 'stay real' in this fascinating astronomical journey.

This time round, however - and after a long (and pretty exhausting!) research-computing-marathon, I will humbly (as ever!) expose the entire Copernican model as the total fraud that it is (along with Einstein's bizarre "Relativity Theory", primarily founded on "planet Mercury's very odd behavior") - and provide mathematical proof (yabadabadoo!) that Tycho Brahe's model was right - or in any case, the closest to the truth. Stay tuned!
simonshack

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Re: The SSSS

In the heliocentric model, the Moon travels faster than the Earth due to its additional rotation around the latter. Yet, when you look at the Moon through a telescope, the movement is so slow it isn't easy to notice unless a star is about to be occulted. The same for Venus, it moves faster than Earth, but I never noticed the motion at the eyepiece. So what may seem to us humans to be great speeds, on a planetary level they are very slow. In fact, the fastest motions I've seen are Jupiter's own rotation and the orbiting of its moons - you can detect the motion within about ten minutes of observation. Much faster than the Earth, and still slow as molasses. I simply fail to see the problem here.

As for the steadiness of polar stars... Precession is the wobble you're expecting to see. What you don't seem to like about it is the timeline, 26,000 years. You expect something quicker than that, right? But I think your expectation is built on the perception of "great speed". If you recognize just how slow the system is, the lack of a faster wobble isn't that surprising. In addition, what would cause it? The Earth is a near perfect sphere, with only a slight deviation in terms of flattening at the poles. Equatorially, centrifugally, there's not enough variation to cause a wobble (or to put it more accurately, a secondary spin).

All of that said, I must admit the Brahe system is more satisfying on an emotional level. While the Copernican model is cold, positing the Earth as nothing special, a random speck of dust, the Tycho Brahe system places us in the centre, lights circling around us, an orderly and homely world, quite magickal, a bit like Christmas.

But let's take care. The Brahe system was favoured by the Church, the biggest and most damaging hoaxter in history, whose success had been "all witchcraft". No-one frightened the populace more than the Church. So even the ideas that should be most comforting to the human spirit, such as the Brahe system, can and do get used by the worst elements.

In all of these deliberations, there's always something of value to be gained, some new insights that wouldn't be found otherwise. With that in mind, I sincerely look forward to your new thread.

****
ADMIN NOTICE (simon): Dr Tim, last night I corrected your repeated 'Brache' typos (and missed one of them - due to sheer eye-fatigue...) Please remember that Tycho's last name is spelled "Brahe - not 'Brache'. Thanks.
DrTim
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Re: The SSSS

I have a funny feeling that CGI-church-mouse Tim and eloquent astronomer-feel-good-psychologist Tim are two different doctors, but I am probably just oversuspicious.

DrTim wrote:But let's take care. The Brahe system was favoured by the Church, the biggest and most damaging hoaxter in history, whose success had been "all witchcraft". No-one frightened the populace more than the Church. So even the ideas that should be most comforting to the human spirit, such as the Brahe system, can and do get used by the worst elements.

I will spare you my comments on this obscure piece of reasoning.
Flabbergasted
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Re: The SSSS

Secondly, the plausibility, balance of probabillities. So here we have Earth, nicely sunbathing by the Sun in a little orbit all of its own, while the rest of the universe is made of one-thing-orbiting-another, and there is nothing like the Earth out there... Doesn't seem likely.

What are probabillities? Are they sickly possibilities?

Since we are occasionally dropping the need for evidence and talking about what feels right in the passive voice, allow me to represent the view that Simon's theory offers no more extra emotional comfort than another theory; what would make a central position to our system necessarily anything except physically central? Seems a very human assumption to declare that the more noticeable something is to us, the more it means it's important. Further, a "spinning" billiard-ball style Earth hurling through outer space in orbit around the Sun taking a 240 million year cycle around the Milky Way through the cosmos doesn't seem likely either.

But wait, that's just an opinion. Not a scientific fact.
hoi.polloi

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Re: The SSSS

WOW, clowns everywhere! I knew I would catch them eventually, and now I have.

Someone has edited my post above and I have a screenshot to prove it. In several places my mis-spelt "Brache" was changed to "Brahe", but one was missed. Who's the clever Alec?

@Flabbergasted: just one "doctor" here, but many interests, astronomy a big one. As for my "obscure piece of reasoning", it comes with the territory really. When trying to explain things that are themselves obscure or hidden, the statement of such things going on may itself seem obscure. To an extent, I'm overly relying on the reader having enough shared knowledge to get my point. If you've ever been targeted by clowns, you will know exactly how the power of the Church was built. On hoaxes small and large.

@hoi.poloi: Is "probabilities" single L? Mea culpa, good catch! Otherwise we clearly have different perspectives on things, and I'm happy to leave it at that.

****
ADMIN NOTICE ( simon): Dr Tim, "hoi polloi" is spelled with two L's. You also repeatedly misspelled the name "Brahe" (the greatest astronomer of all times) in your post above - and I am the "clown" who corteously tried to fix it for you. I will have to issue a warning to you for your silly behavior and lousy spelling - as well as for derailing this thread. And yes, I know full well that the Church is a big hoaxing machine, thank you very much. Besides, please know that Copernicus was, throughout his lifetime, a clergyman / church official (a canon of the cathedral chapter of Frombork) well-respected by the church - and no, it is not me making this up.
DrTim
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Re: The SSSS

DrTim wrote:WOW, clowns everywhere! I knew I would catch them eventually, and now I have.

Someone has edited my post above and I have a screenshot to prove it. In several places my mis-spelt "Brache" was changed to "Brahe", but one was missed. Who's the clever Alec?

It's not uncommon for the mods to correct a spelling error or typo in users post. No biggie. Clowns?
brianv
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Re: The SSSS

Oh dear me! Apologies for the mis-spellings, though this is the first time it's been an issue in an online forum. But - your forum, your rules, I can't complain.

Thanks to Simon for clarifying he corrected the post. I would have expected the "Last edited by..." notice to appear in such a case. As it didn't, I thought of clowns. Sorry, Simon, and thanks for the correction.

As for the silly behaviour and derailing the thread, I don't see it. I've been on topic throughout. Granted, not in agreement with the rest of you, but still. At any rate, I've stated my opinion, and answered the responses - I can rest the matter there and wait for the new thread.
DrTim
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