NASA'S F.E. DBA STRATEGY

If NASA faked the moon landings, does the agency have any credibility at all? Was the Space Shuttle program also a hoax? Is the International Space Station another one? Do not dismiss these hypotheses offhand. Check out our wider NASA research and make up your own mind about it all.
ICfreely
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Re: NASA'S FLAT EARTH DBA STRATEGY

Unread post by ICfreely » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:51 pm

My posts lead you to Cavendish. You just parrot & 'Carrot Top' my research. Anyone can read my take on science in my 70+ posts & decide for themselves. Still waters run deep, goose. Swim back ashore to the comforting accolades of your subscribers.

Painterman
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Re: NASA'S FLAT EARTH DBA STRATEGY

Unread post by Painterman » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:42 am

Everyone south of the equator sees the same star (namely the southern polestar Sigma Octantis) when looking due south. But the flat earth model predicts, and the proposed flat earth maps confirm, that these people should be looking into outer space in 360 degrees worth of different directions when facing due south, depending on each observer's longitude. So, on a flat earth, people in Argentina, South Africa and Australia would see different parts of the starry sky when looking due south at any given moment, not the same star at all. Here we have a classic example of a theory making predictions that are inconsistent with actual observation. Thus the flat earth is falsified.

The flat earth model predicts a direct line of sight from Europe to the Americas. Atmospheric effects aside, if the earth were flat the east coast and certain inland mountain ranges of the Americas would be visible from the west coast of Europe, perhaps with binoculars or a telescope. Flat earth promoters reply that the opacity of the atmosphere, not any curvature of the earth, is what blocks this visibility. However, this claim is disproved simply by watching the moon set over the Atlantic ocean. As the disk of the moon crosses the horizon, the earth's atmosphere is transparent enough to reveal all the familiar features of the moon (on a clear night, obviously). Still there is no sign of the Americas between the setting moon and an observer on the beach in Europe. In general, when the moon rises or sets over an ocean, and you see the moon crossing the horizon behind where the flat earth model says a distant continent is located, the silhouette of that continent should appear in front of the moon. Yet no one ever sees this. Rather, there's always an unobstructed view of the moon right down to the sharp line of the horizon where the ocean meets the sky. Again, the flat earth is falsified.

Simon, your DBA theory explains the flat earth campaign quite well. Note the dishonest rhetoric that constantly implies the "ball earth" (a term itself used to discredit the opposition through contrived silliness!) was somehow NASA's idea - as if everyone thought the earth was flat in 1957, the year before NASA was founded. Of course, the DBA strategy has more uses than just making NASA skeptics look like clueless rubes. The flat earth DBA is probably a prototype for a wider line of DBAs to be launched against many areas of independent research on the internet.

hoi.polloi
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Re: NASA'S FLAT EARTH DBA STRATEGY

Unread post by hoi.polloi » Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:51 am

I agree with the thrust of your argument. To be fair to ourselves and to science, let us not fall into typical terminology that has been simply handed to us by the DBA team itself. It is careful work to distinguish between bad and good people in a crowd we generally distrust, but it's important to do so.

"Flat Earthers" is a potentially derogatory term for people who think there may be something to the observable experience of physics on a planar surface but many take on the name with pride. So that's fine. Let's go with that label for them.

We simply cannot with intellectual honesty say that all of them believe in the bad predictions of the worst among them. That they tolerate such terrible arguments is their fault, though, and they are not going to convince anyone as long as they simply accept arguments based on their bias rather than whether it's actually a good argument or not.

I agree that it's safe to assume the first people who show up on the scene acting as if they believe these predictions without admitting the problems are likely doing it for bad reasons. They are probably playing "pied piper" to all those interested in cosmological and geological subjects, and it's right to warn people about that behavior.

Please forgive me, but I just want to caution us against condemning people for being haplessly fooled by things. It's our responsibility when discussing this with such people to challenge them to argue against such sound logic as Painterman and others have come up with. If they can't, don't forget to listen to arguments that we can't argue against either. Or we risk being a bit hypocritical.

This is turning into the new "left" versus "right" paradigm and it's unwise for us to take a "side" when the actual questions about our world are much more varied, nuanced and understudied. I stand by my stance that there are good points within the discussion getting deliberately buried by the DBA strategy playing two sides — bad arguments for "Flat Earthers" and a slew of characters trying to glue those arguments to good arguments, and making us appear impatient rather than rational. It's really best for CluesForum if we leave this topic alone entirely and try to let it blow over, while warning people not to get involved in limited hang outs designed to clash because nobody knows the answer.

---

However, I want to support you and Simon because I feel it's right. Early on in this debate, there was (to me) an obvious military-style intelligence campaign to get "Flat Earth" proponents to adopt a certain erroneous attitude that goes something like this:

1. Nobody is asking "Flat Earth" questions, so therefore there are no bad arguments in "Flat Earth". (Wrong, there are many bad arguments)
2. I deeply feel inside that actually some of "Flat Earth" arguments are really terrible, but I don't want to mention those because right now I am using them as a litmus test to see who is capable of asking hard questions. (Not admitting bad arguments; self-deception; calling poorly reasoned arguments "hard questions" rather than poorly reasoned arguments)
3. I will suspend my normal propensity for resisting personality cults because I find some personalities are useful at helping me maintain the first two attitudes. (Catharsis; loneliness in asking questions is alleviated by sheep mentality)
4. It's fun to feel that this new wave is superior because it is a minority and because it is cozy to take a "side". (Dumb brute mentality, gang up and clobber people with everything rather than thoughtfulness, care, logic, appeals to reason, diplomacy, real data)
5. Really strong good questions are tiresome. Let's throw in weaker arguments because it's more fun, nicer or more imaginative. (Reality is annoying; let's avoid it because it's hard)

If you don't think this was deliberately crafted for your consumption, please go back and study advertising, media analysis or Edward Bernays' "Public Relations" strategies. Please consider whether this appears to be a weak alternative created as a direct antithesis to some of the stronger points of the CluesForum MO, which is more like this:

1. There are really bad questions that deserve resistance because they are bad. When they come up repeatedly, despite very good arguments against them, we can assume these people are not thinking for themselves or have not come up with adequate wording to frame their position better. When any form of media uses all their might to push weaker questions rather than even considering good questions, we can assume they do not want the stronger questions asked.
2. Strive to reject bad arguments regardless of their sex appeal; strive to accept good arguments regardless of their distaste; distinguish first based on logic rather than embracing something only because it is rebellious (or only because it's "common sense").
3. No personality cults are worth going unquestioned. Beware of people that excuse this. Assume first that everyone is capable of reason and logic on their own.
4. Do not be eager to argue from the place of self-victimization or "I am an underdog!", nor look for fast friends to form a gang. Use your own best logic that can stand on its own, first.
5. Reality is of great interest to people, and distinguishing reality from fiction is an important pastime of humankind.

I don't want to name names, but you don't have to throw a pebble very far to hit the latest "Flat Earth" behemoths completely rejecting these generally good habits. They are guilty of directly promoting (and benefiting) from an attitude that looks very designed to me.

And at this stage, they hardly need to try. It's become a faith engine that runs itself thanks to those that are finding it convenient to cuddle up to arguments like:

"I really just don't want to live in a world where I have to judge whether people are deceiving me or not."
(Convenience, comfort, relaxation, implying that detecting deception is "uncomfortable" and "stressful" rather than empowering to the self and the community)

It makes CluesForum appear "mean" for asking people to empower themselves and practice what the media has tried to kill — one's own determinations!

"I am just creating my own questions instead of using boring old arguments."
(Don't judge whether questions make any sense, nor answer them if they are easily countered; leave them hanging to create a very large straw man around good questions, that will burn the whole lot to a crisp when encountering the average person's good reasoning — destroying good questions because they are supposedly embarrassing)

We love to ask questions, too. But we also allow peer review and point out to each other when a question doesn't work. Doing this with the present DBA crowd doesn't seem to work. At best, they acknowledge it's a weak argument, then continue to discuss it at the forefront of their media as if they are insulted by good arguments that help them figure out reality! Is reality "embarrassing"? Is this DBA group run by Catholics or something?

I think the "dopey wanderer" is the typical personality character that best fits with their strategy: storytelling, speculating, friendly, eager, lazy, pretending to not understand, encouraging people not to understand, making people feel "hurt" by the strongest arguments, assuming best intentions even when there is evidence to the contrary, and avoiding research because imagination and play are more fun.

ProperGander
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Re: NASA'S FLAT EARTH DBA STRATEGY

Unread post by ProperGander » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:37 pm

U.S. Naval personal 'confirming' Flat Earth?
Seems possible it is an intelligent agent at work.
The Navy has a history with the trinity of technology, entertainment and intelligence. Funny that.

Some food for thought.


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFi98T8phoI


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJOB0vcZ4NI

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Re: NASA'S FLAT EARTH DBA STRATEGY

Unread post by simonshack » Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:52 pm

Propergander wrote:Some food for thought.
Food for thought? Allow me to :puke:


Now, excuse me all for asking, but:

Does anyone still think that the naming of this "FLAT EARTH CLUES" website (by flat-earther-Clown-in-Chief Mark Sargeant) is entirely coincidental - i.e. a mere / insignificant happenstance unworthy of our worries - and that for me to suspect that this peculiar naming has something to do with a wilful DBA-agenda to discredit-CLUESforum-by-association could just be ...ehrm... a figment of my overly-paranoid imagination?

http://www.flatearthclues.com/

I'm not going to launch a poll to find out how our readers think about this little issue - but I'd appreciate any thoughtful comments about it.

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Re: NASA'S FLAT EARTH DBA STRATEGY

Unread post by fbenario » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:49 pm

simonshack wrote:
Propergander wrote:Some food for thought.
Food for thought? Allow me to :puke:


Now, excuse me all for asking, but:

Does anyone still think that the naming of this "FLAT EARTH CLUES" website (by flat-earther-Clown-in-Chief Mark Sargeant) is entirely coincidental - i.e. a mere / insignificant happenstance unworthy of our worries - and that for me to suspect that this peculiar naming has something to do with a wilful DBA-agenda to discredit-CLUESforum-by-association could just be ...ehrm... a figment of my overly-paranoid imagination?

http://www.flatearthclues.com/

I'm not going to launch a poll to find out how our readers think about this little issue - but I'd appreciate any thoughtful comments about it.
Simon, I think you're right.

ICfreely
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Re: NASA'S FLAT EARTH DBA STRATEGY

Unread post by ICfreely » Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:56 am

To add insult to shillery, Sgt. Strangelove claimed he wasn't even aware of CluesForum. Methinks the only thing this 'researcher' is testing is the ambient threshold of credulity.

Painterman
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Re: NASA'S FLAT EARTH DBA STRATEGY

Unread post by Painterman » Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:32 am

simonshack,

Of course "Flat Earth Clues" is deliberate mimicry, though the effect is intended to be mostly subliminal. The flat earth astroturf marketing campaign is trying to parasitically suck off your brand and eventually eat the host. Their early maneuvers can sometimes resemble "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery", as they placate your ego while positioning themselves for a hostile takeover. In the end they mean to capture your public opinion market-share and then change the subject from your work to myriad frivolous and nonthreatening topics for truth researchers to waste their time on, like this flat earth nonsense. Similarly, doesn't everyone have archived somewhere in their memory a 1980s rock star named Simon le Bon?

Wikipedia on "brand community":

"A brand community is a community formed on the basis of attachment to a product or marque. Recent developments in marketing and in research in consumer behavior result in stressing the connection between brand, individual identity and culture. Among the concepts developed to explain the behavior of consumers, the concept of a brand community focuses on the connections between consumers. A brand community can be defined as an enduring self-selected group of actors sharing a system of values, standards and representations (a culture) and recognizing bonds of membership with each other and with the whole. Brand communities are characterized in shared consciousness, rituals and traditions, and a sense of moral responsibility."

The word-play mimicry from the too-clever-by-half weenies of the flat earth campaign is part of their strategy to co-opt and neutralize (through DBA and other means) the September Clues brand community.

ICfreely
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Re: NASA'S FLAT EARTH DBA STRATEGY

Unread post by ICfreely » Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:16 am

Similarly, doesn't everyone have archived somewhere in their memory a 1980s rock star named Simon le Bon?
Simon John Charles Le Bon to be exact.


This is planet Earth
You're looking at planet Earth
Bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop
This is planet Earth

-Duran Duran

hoi.polloi
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Re: NASA'S FLAT EARTH DBA STRATEGY

Unread post by hoi.polloi » Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:16 pm

I am sorry to jump in with a minority and overly philosophical opinion again. I just wanted to add that even if "Flat Earth Clues" was a deliberate attempt to associate average searches for truth associated with the word, that it would be a clever strategy.

The average person is never going to guess that a common word like 'clue' has been turned into some sort of important brand unless it is glitzy, shiny, sexy, popular or makes lots of money and is featured in Newsweek. And it makes us look desperate, sad and self-important for paying attention to the average populations' attentions that do not plug in to things outside of the military intelligence/paparazzi world. A mainstream thinker will simply assume we are "hipsters" — or those that attempt to create private fads by going against the grain. They won't see it's plain that going against the grain is the main consequence of using your brain.

Of course, people taking offense to this are missing the point that the purpose of our forum is to reach the largest number of people with untainted information; but I'm just saying, "I don't know about CluesForum" is a believable cover for some people and not to others. And just a constant reminder that the distraction DBAs are nothing new to our research. They started with day one. We are being analyzed and targeted and split into demographics. They want to control this information. They need to control this information. And they will continue to try. Because it's the best way of attacking it without anyone noticing it's being attacked.

We have to get "bigger" through word of mouth alone, so that the little snits fade away, as they consistently have while we patiently sit here and grow roots and thrive.

ICfreely
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Re: NASA'S FLAT EARTH DBA STRATEGY

Unread post by ICfreely » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:42 am

I’d like to share my ‘Discredit by Dissociative Disorder Theory’ (aka Neo Clown College phenomenon). The Royal Society of Tavi-stalkers has unleashed yet another golem upon mankind – ‘Christians Against Dinosaurs.’ The, all too transparent, goals of this new ‘entity’ are to:

1) Equate rational dinosaur skepticism with fanatical religious nonsense.
2) Reinforce the momo meme, ‘Bible-bad-belief, science-good-knowledge.’
3) Prepare a nice, big ‘flat earth clues – September clues forum – Christians against dinosaurs, Arabs, Jews and emus’ shit-sandwich cluster-fuck for undiscerning minds to feast on.

If you’re inclined to believe in the good book and the terrible lizards, then Kent Hovind’s your guy. He went mano-a-mano with the wonder boy in an epic creation vs. evolution debate on CNN. ‘Sci-fi’ Nye proved, to this writer’s satisfaction, that he’s one of the very few (say, the capacity of a short yellow school bus) people capable of deciphering Uncle Alby’s Very Special Theories. Bill & Kent’s constant appeals to authority, asking loaded/misleading questions, giving dodgy answers and leading their would-be followers into dead-ends and circular arguments were as intellectually stimulating as watching a couple of very special Olympians attempting to copulate with a doorknob.

The Sarge is in charge of the ‘fascinated by strange, clueless speculations’ sect whom still wish to believe in unclear theology. Jeranism (aka Bizarro ICfreely, WhyCfreely), is the (dim) witty (not so) irreverent word-play (con) artist (Totally Globull :rolleyes: ) who got tongue-tied trying to explain the ‘stellar aberration’ phenomenon within the FE model to Robert Sungenis. The good Sheppard Rob is there to guide those who’ve lost faith in the starry messenger back into the loving arms of the United Church of the Zionized Roman Demigods. Sungenis has all the signs & symptoms of Double-Duped Syndrome. Severe episodes of sci-fi delusions followed by manic biblical conclusions have obviously taken their toll. Remember folks, it’s not his fault. The man is suffering from a terminal mind diminishing disease. His refusal to seek treatment (conscientious curiosity and critical thinking) makes him a lost cause.

Welcome to the Sci-Fi/Wi-Fi jungle dear novice reader. The ‘gods’ care not what you believe in, so long as you believe in something. The day could come when the establishment actively endorses CluesForumism. The Orthodox Simonian Fundamentalists will study the Gospel of Maat, Nonhocapito’s Book of Numbers, Brianv’s Book of Proverbs, the Lost Book of Lux and the Apostle Scud. The other faction will be built around hoi’s extensive musings with something for everyone. The Hoi Purists will demand strict interpretation (and adherence/allegiance to) the sacred words of his Hoiness thereby driving themselves insane. The post-modern avant-garde neo hoi-ites will be the relativist sub-sect catchall for the rest of the hoi-ists…

What will the whacky wizards of cause & effect come up with next? Jews & Gentiles Against Jurassic Parks? Muslims Against Wiccans and Woolly Mammoths? Possibilities abound, mate!

hoi.polloi
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Re: NASA'S FLAT EARTH DBA STRATEGY

Unread post by hoi.polloi » Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:12 pm

ICfreely wrote:I’d like to share my ‘Discredit by Dissociative Disorder Theory’ (aka Neo Clown College phenomenon). The Royal Society of Tavi-stalkers has unleashed yet another golem upon mankind – ‘Christians Against Dinosaurs.’ The, all too transparent, goals of this new ‘entity’ are to:

1) Equate rational dinosaur skepticism with fanatical religious nonsense.
2) Reinforce the momo meme, ‘Bible-bad-belief, science-good-knowledge.’
3) Prepare a nice, big ‘flat earth clues – September clues forum – Christians against dinosaurs, Arabs, Jews and emus’ shit-sandwich cluster-fuck for undiscerning minds to feast on.
"Christians against dinosaurs" as a phenomenon is nothing new. Almost a decade ago, I witnessed Michael Shermer wipe the floor with one at a church-based "debate" (oh heavens, how that word was a fake draw to that playground skirmish!) but I see what you mean about the establishment specifically creating new fake entities/organizations to ride new waves of poor thinking.
The Sarge is in charge of the ‘fascinated by strange, clueless speculations’ sect whom still wish to believe in unclear theology. Jeranism (aka Bizarro ICfreely, WhyCfreely), is the (dim) witty (not so) irreverent word-play (con) artist (Totally Globull :rolleyes: ) who got tongue-tied trying to explain the ‘stellar aberration’ phenomenon within the FE model to Robert Sungenis.
Where did this happen? Link?
Welcome to the Sci-Fi/Wi-Fi jungle dear novice reader. The ‘gods’ care not what you believe in, so long as you believe in something. The day could come when the establishment actively endorses CluesForumism. The Orthodox Simonian Fundamentalists will study the Gospel of Maat, Nonhocapito’s Book of Numbers, Brianv’s Book of Proverbs, the Lost Book of Lux and the Apostle Scud. The other faction will be built around hoi’s extensive musings with something for everyone. The Hoi Purists will demand strict interpretation (and adherence/allegiance to) the sacred words of his Hoiness thereby driving themselves insane. The post-modern avant-garde neo hoi-ites will be the relativist sub-sect catchall for the rest of the hoi-ists…
Unfortunately, this is something we constantly push back on because it's a human tendency to worship for the sake of saving energy. Of course it's a lot of work to do research for yourself, but we must always try to push it and encourage it in readers to do our best to prevent us becoming the next big hypnotheater. Admittedly, I have maintained it is better that people have mistrust of us if it helps them retain their will to determine trustworthiness in general. Bob forbid any of your uncool revelations should come to pass. We are lacking in slack.

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Re: NASA'S FLAT EARTH DBA STRATEGY

Unread post by ProperGander » Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:23 pm

Gatekeeping at work? It seems it is getting easy to spot actors on screens.

If this is the best the powers that be can do to derail the obvious and easily researched truths about our global culture,
they are in more trouble than they bargained for when the 'brain trust' decided to do '9/11'.


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajStf_mNyu8

After all when September 11, 2001 was planned, the public had more limited access to both the internet and digital video.

They do not seem to truly understand how powerful a tool we have at our fingertips.

All this video does is reveal how illogical Judy Wood's reasoning is and how it is absurd to go from believing in the mainstream narrative, to being 100% sure one knows the Earth is flat.
Odd how these two seem to think the subject of the Flat Earth more important than 9/11. Last time I checked, no legislature was passed into law due to the Earth's geometry.

The other funny thing is we now are also hip to the psychological warfare aspect of all of this. Mind control is no more mysterious than Madison Avenue advertising. Watch a few seasons of Mad Men and you will get it.
The stage magician's secrets are easily revealed for what they are. It doesn't take much research into this subject to realize it is mostly smoke and mirrors and little else. We are literally in the Wizard of Oz, a scripted fiction. That is all it ever was and ever will be. This is what culture is. The screen has always been used by the elite to conceal and distract the public.
Last edited by ProperGander on Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NASA'S FLAT EARTH DBA STRATEGY

Unread post by SacredCowSlayer » Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:40 pm

fbenario wrote:
simonshack wrote:
Propergander wrote:Some food for thought.
Food for thought? Allow me to :puke:


Now, excuse me all for asking, but:

Does anyone still think that the naming of this "FLAT EARTH CLUES" website (by flat-earther-Clown-in-Chief Mark Sargeant) is entirely coincidental - i.e. a mere / insignificant happenstance unworthy of our worries - and that for me to suspect that this peculiar naming has something to do with a wilful DBA-agenda to discredit-CLUESforum-by-association could just be ...ehrm... a figment of my overly-paranoid imagination?

http://www.flatearthclues.com/



I'm not going to launch a poll to find out how our readers think about this little issue - but I'd appreciate any thoughtful comments about it.
Simon, I think you're right.
Simon,

I have to agree with Fbenario. With all the monkey business I am seeing on YouTube the tactic seems clear enough to me. They are obviously trying to discredit this forum by association.

The good news is that I have referred a number of people here to check out certain threads, and I have received very positive feedback. One such person (a lawyer friend) called me last week and said "I went to CF and people can say what they want about it, but there are some bright people there who can articulate and back up what they are saying quite well." This person is now hooked and wanting to join. I've gotten at least four new CF readers in the last week alone!

I'm really interested in going into some detail about how we can start waking people around us up in our communities. People (not all of course) can be helped to see the light if they are handled properly. Should I just post on the "Getting the Word Out" thread, or is there somewhere else more appropriate? I've got a method that I think is worth sharing. Don't worry, I'll get better at navigating this forum.

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Re: NASA'S FLAT EARTH DBA STRATEGY

Unread post by HonestlyNow » Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:30 pm

ProperGander wrote:decided to do '911'.
. . . more important than 911.
As a note — it's "9/11" and not "911".

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