Fakery in Orbit: THE I$$

If NASA faked the moon landings, does the agency have any credibility at all? Was the Space Shuttle program also a hoax? Is the International Space Station another one? Do not dismiss these hypotheses offhand. Check out our wider NASA research and make up your own mind about it all.

Re: Fakery in Orbit: THE ISS

Unread postby hoi.polloi on Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:42 am

Yes. I did use a 2x barlow for that image though. I also use a video capture card to digitize the video signal. I recently upgraded from the SDC-435 to a Mallincam (which uses the exact same type of OSD menu system, also uses analog video which has to be digitized, and is designed exclusively for astronomy). Clearly you don't understand astrophotography or how apparent magnification works with CCDs.


The smaller the circle of people that understand how something works, the fewer people you must fool. If you fool them, it is much easier to rest on their laurels for credibility. So let's just get that out of the way and isolate this to your responsibility.

On the other hand, everyone can see that a JPG, BMP, GIF, PNG and other files are just common forms of compressing an image. Therefore, you aren't presenting a very credible case for your imagery.

1. Your exclusivity doesn't make you more credible. It makes you less credible.

2. Many more people can fabricate an image than use your hardware-software combination and speak about it with expertise.

You're saying the only way we can reproduce this image is to learn about techniques that you, and a handful of the world population, actually know about. But that isn't so. It can also just be fabricated out of nothing more than Adobe Creative Suite.

What is the most basic, affordable way any one of us could capture the ISS with our own systems? Please explain your set up and how it might be achieved by anybody with the fewest expenses and inconveniences as possible. If that is too much to ask, explain (and photograph) your arrangement so that we can see if one of us can't reproduce your methods and capture what you claim to have captured.
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Re: Fakery in Orbit: THE ISS

Unread postby Libero on Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:26 am

Astronut,

So if I wanted to be a wonderful prospective photo faker, is that the strategy you would recommend for me?... Dumb down the image just enough so as not to cast doubt to the non-believers? Gee whiz, that sounds a little 9/11ish regarding media fakery in itself right along with their representation of the little white puffs of smoke spurting out of the buildings, tilting rooftops and metal swallowing cement edifices. The fact that you would try to promote the Gabrielle Giffords' story as genuine speaks leagues about you. Is that the type of folks that we would expect to get sent over this way? Pink haired people preaching your photographic prowess while promoting your promising poetry?

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-last-wor ... 0#41012290

Hopefully you had the opportunity to watch the video above to the bitter end to get the news dude's punchline.

As far as I see it, the only conspiracy here may be that you are trying to prove to your club that you are indeed the John Thomas of ISS tracking, afterall, I know that media fakery is real. You have all of the ID's with your various different logins set up already on these sites... why don't you just go ahead and invite your cronies over? My feeling, you see, is that you just might hold a wee bit more influence over their decision to pop in. We'll all greet 'em with a 'howdy!' and then get down to serious business.

Cheers!

Image
Last edited by Libero on Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:14 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Fakery in Orbit: THE ISS

Unread postby hoi.polloi on Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:36 am

When the conspiracy is so ridiculous that you have to accuse regular amateur astronomers like me of being part of a conspiracy, there is no help for you. You're beyond help.


The premise is false. What "conspiracy" are you talking about? When have you been tracking "it" (whatever it is) getting from "non-ridiculous" to "ridiculous"? And who says anything about you being a part of it? Why do you insert yourself into this drama you are painting? Why do you assume such a defensive position so quickly? All we are asking is to know more about your apparent story about how you acquired this image and why you are disseminating it so fervently.

Why do you want people to believe you so instantly, without question? This is what you claim to have captured, beyond our reasoning into how you have done so:

Image

If you are legitimate, and you don't want our investigation to include investigations into yourself, why would you post here? This place is full of inquisitive, discriminating minds, looking for answers and proofs. You knew that your story would arouse curiosity here, yet you act offended when we ask for details. Why are you really here?

Show you are legitimate. Humor us, and post a detailed description - with photographs - of your set up. No need to include any identifying information. Just show us that we could do exactly what you did to capture this image the way you claim to have done.
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Re: Fakery in Orbit: THE ISS

Unread postby astronut on Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:54 pm

reichstag fireman wrote:
astronut wrote: Clearly you don't understand astrophotography or how apparent magnification works with CCDs. Funny, I also presented the STS-135 video to my fellow amateur astronomers. They know as well as I do that it's absolutely genuine.


I don't get it.

If I'd taken that footage, and if I knew I wouldn't be rumbled for photo fraud (because the footage was genuine) then I'd want the glory of seeing it published under my real name in the mainstream press, and I'd want royalties for it.

You are not me. I don't care about royalties, I'm not doing this for money. It was, however, published under my real name.
Yet instead, you anonymously tout your incredible footage for nothing around various "conspiracy theory" websites, such as GodLikeProductions*. Why so?

* While this forum was whacked off the internet, I tried to visit GodLikeProducts.com.. but they were having none of it. The IP address was banned :blink: GLP, the beacon of free speech, eh?!

I also present some of my images on various websites anonymously, but the video which was brought up a couple of pages ago and then attacked was indeed published under my name.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badas ... -daylight/
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Re: Fakery in Orbit: THE ISS

Unread postby astronut on Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:11 pm

hoi.polloi wrote:
Yes. I did use a 2x barlow for that image though. I also use a video capture card to digitize the video signal. I recently upgraded from the SDC-435 to a Mallincam (which uses the exact same type of OSD menu system, also uses analog video which has to be digitized, and is designed exclusively for astronomy). Clearly you don't understand astrophotography or how apparent magnification works with CCDs.


The smaller the circle of people that understand how something works, the fewer people you must fool. If you fool them, it is much easier to rest on their laurels for credibility. So let's just get that out of the way and isolate this to your responsibility.

There are thousands of amateur astronomers who know how to track ISS. There are even more who understand the equipment I use. You are welcome to invite them here to "prove me wrong." It is your responsibility to prove that I faked the video, not the other way around.
On the other hand, everyone can see that a JPG, BMP, GIF, PNG and other files are just common forms of compressing an image. Therefore, you aren't presenting a very credible case for your imagery.

You've utterly failed to prove that I faked my imagery.
2. Many more people can fabricate an image than use your hardware-software combination and speak about it with expertise.

I disagree that they could speak about it with expertise, but in any case it's irrelevant. The burden of proof is on you to prove that I faked the video.
You're saying the only way we can reproduce this image is to learn about techniques that you, and a handful of the world population, actually know about. But that isn't so. It can also just be fabricated out of nothing more than Adobe Creative Suite.

I've seen attempts to fake ISS tracking videos. They sucked. They made several critical errors and failed to recreate all the aspects of a real video accurately.
What is the most basic, affordable way any one of us could capture the ISS with our own systems? Please explain your set up and how it might be achieved by anybody with the fewest expenses and inconveniences as possible. If that is too much to ask, explain (and photograph) your arrangement so that we can see if one of us can't reproduce your methods and capture what you claim to have captured.

Oh, let me guess, I explain and photograph all of it, which I'm happy to do, then one of you claims he wasn't able to find ISS and therefore it must be fake, even though he didn't really try. Sorry, but a claimed negative attempt does not disprove positive confirmation. We're not going to play that game. Tell you what, come to the Chiefland Fall Star Party this year and I'll show you ISS in person, straight through the eyepiece.

For the record, I use a Meade 8" LX200 Classic Schmidt-Cassegrain telescope, Brent Boshart's Satellite Tracker software, and a Meade LPI strapped to the viewfinder for acquiring ISS while recording it through the main telescope with a modified Samsung SDC-435 at prime focus (with or without a 2x barlow). I also use anti-vibration pads to help stabilize the view and a video capture card to record the video from the SDC-435 (I do have a mallincam, but I find the Samsung provides sharper views of bright objects like ISS). You can see what this setup looks like, in this case with the samsung attached to a widefield refractor that I sometimes use for astrophotography, here:
http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm47 ... cd0baf.jpg
This setup can be replicated for about $3000
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Re: Fakery in Orbit: THE ISS

Unread postby astronut on Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:13 pm

hoi.polloi wrote:The premise is false. What "conspiracy" are you talking about?

The one I have been accused of being a part of for the last few pages.
If you are legitimate, and you don't want our investigation to include investigations into yourself,

I don't like stalkers and I don't like false accusations, drop the bullshit conspiracy theorizing about me.
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Re: Fakery in Orbit: THE ISS

Unread postby astronut on Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:16 pm

Libero wrote:As far as I see it, the only conspiracy here may be that you are trying to prove to your club that you are indeed the John Thomas of ISS tracking, afterall, I know that media fakery is real.

I don't have to prove anything to my club, they know I'm for real, they've seen it with my scope in person. Come to the Chiefland Fall Star Party and I'll show anyone who wants to see it for themselves as well.
You have all of the ID's with your various different logins set up already on these sites... why don't you just go ahead and invite your cronies over?

I wouldn't dare invite them to a place filled with people like you. I regard you as a cyber stalker and potentially dangerous. If you want to invite them, fine, but the fact that you won't shows your true lack of convictions.
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Re: Fakery in Orbit: THE ISS

Unread postby Heiwa on Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:16 pm

@astronut
Did you clean the telescope lens prior shooting the ISS or whatever it is? :rolleyes:
Suggest you film the ISS again with a Soyuz rocket module docking or un-docking. That would be fabulous. B)
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Re: Fakery in Orbit: THE ISS

Unread postby simonshack on Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:41 pm

astronut wrote:I've seen attempts to fake ISS tracking videos. They sucked. They made several critical errors and failed to recreate all the aspects of a real video accurately.


That's awesome, Astronut! I'm glad to hear that you are actually aware of the fact that there are clowns out there who produce fake imagery and pass it off for authentic. This is a very interesting development - and I hope we can entertain a meaningful and constructive discourse from now on.

With this in mind (that fakery-clowns do exist) and assuming that you are not one of them, as you claim - I have a few questions for you which I hope you will respond to in due course. In the meanwhile, I will kindly ask all forum members to refrain from accusing you of being a fraud. Fair deal? Hoping you'll approve - here are my first few questions:

Q1: As a registered member of Cluesforum, would you assist us in exposing any forged ISS imagery out there? Wouldn't this be in your best interest, in order to preserve the credibility of your own endeavors?

Q2: In your opinion, would this be an authentic ISS shot? (I trust you are familiar with this Mike Tyrrell?)

issspinning_zps93zat4ln.gif

(this is a sped up clip showing an approx 1min25sec-long timeframe)
source video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Wp-CuJksk

[ADMIN: Note the above video "ISS Amateur Ground Tracking" published by Kentaro Mori on Feb 11, 2008 seems to have been removed due to a copyright claim by BBC, curiously. -HP 1-17-18]


Q3: Here is a CGI attempt of simulating an ISS tracking video (by CGI artist "Fakinghoaxer" - who openly states that this is CGI, btw.). Are there any critical errors which betray that this is not an authentic video? If so, could you point them out for us?

full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjAR85LJAJM

Thanks in advance for taking time replying to the above questions.

**************
ps: I would also appreciate if you could provide us a link to what you consider being your very best ISS tracking video. Thanks!
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Re: Fakery in Orbit: THE ISS

Unread postby Libero on Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:43 pm

Heiwa wrote:@astronut
Did you clean the telescope lens prior shooting the ISS or whatever it is? :rolleyes:
Suggest you film the ISS again with a Soyuz rocket module docking or un-docking. That would be fabulous. B)



That's an interesting one to note, Heiwa. Would we expect to see debris on the lens if the focus was so far out?


Edit: What a curious response back to hoi.polloi :D

astronut wrote:
You've utterly failed to prove that I faked my imagery.

Last edited by Libero on Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Fakery in Orbit: THE ISS

Unread postby astronut on Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:12 pm

simonshack wrote:
astronut wrote:I've seen attempts to fake ISS tracking videos. They sucked. They made several critical errors and failed to recreate all the aspects of a real video accurately.


That's awesome, Astronut! I'm glad to hear that you are actually aware of the fact that there are clowns out there who produce fake imagery and pass it off for authentic.

I didn't say anything about them trying to pass it off as authentic. To date I have never seen anyone make a fake video of ISS tracking that they tried to pass off as authentic. In fact, the guy ironically though it was proof that such videos could be fake, but in truth it contains a number of errors that give away the fact that it's fake (to say nothing of the fact that the CG itself just doesn't fully recreate what a real tracking video looks like).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjAR85LJAJM
He tried to fix one of those errors in a follow-up video, but it's still an obvious fake for a number of reasons (and I'm not talking about his TFH logo).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnQ21IQnnU4
In the meanwhile, I will kindly ask all forum members to refrain from accusing you of being a fraud.

No, how about you get them to formally retract the accusation altogether and then I'll be on my way.
Q2: In your opinion, would this be an authentic ISS shot? (I trust you are familiar with this Mike Tyrrell?)
Image
(this is a sped up clip showing an approx 1min25sec-long timeframe)
source video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Wp-CuJksk

Yes, it's real, Mike and Phil used equipment similar to mine.
Q3: Here is a CGI attempt of simulating an ISS tracking video (by CGI artist "Fakinghoaxer" - who openly states that this is CGI, btw.). Are there any critical errors which betray that this is not an authentic video? If so, could you point them out for us?

Yes, there are several. The fact that you can't point them out shows that you're incapable of detecting blatant hoaxes yet have the gall to accuse honest people of committing hoaxes. For one thing the way he tried to animate it was akin to someone trying to track by hand but at a camcorder-style wide field of view compared to telescopic magnification. That's not what tracking errors look like when attempting tracking at that magnification in real life, even by hand. I will also say he did try to correct one major error that any moron could see; the color of the solar panels is all wrong. For another thing, the orientation of the space station's direction of travel is wrong. For another thing, the albedo of the solar panels at low oblique angles is all wrong as is the dynamic range of the station's brightness. His video also shows almost no atmospheric distortion at the apex of the pass, yet the solar panels lack detail and the main radiators on the truss are mysteriously absent. As the station recedes the view becomes "staticy" for no reason and although the station is small and must be low on the horizon, the perspective does not appear to have changed in the correct manner and no chromatic aberration due to atmospheric refraction is evident. There's more as well, but all in all it's clearly a fake to anyone who has tracked it for real.
ps: I would also appreciate if you could provide us a link to what you consider being your very best ISS tracking video. Thanks!

You already have it. Tracking ISS in broad daylight with Atlantis docked is the most technically difficult and historically important ISS tracking video I have. On videos where I use the 2x barlow it's quite difficult to keep the station in the field of view for very long at the peak of the pass, thus I mainly do that to collect the one or two still frames from the video that show ISS sharply as a way of taking a picture of the station. For videos I tend to leave the barlow off and view the station with less magnification. Aside from the ISS in daylight video, my best night video is probably this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E6bQcvT9W4
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Re: Fakery in Orbit: THE ISS

Unread postby astronut on Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:13 pm

Libero wrote:
Heiwa wrote:@astronut
Did you clean the telescope lens prior shooting the ISS or whatever it is? :rolleyes:
Suggest you film the ISS again with a Soyuz rocket module docking or un-docking. That would be fabulous. B)



That's an interesting one to note, Heiwa. Would we expect to see debris on the lens if the focus was so far out?

Yes, the dust is right on the CCD itself. That's why for high resolution still astrophotography, amateur astronomers use flat fields to calibrate their images and eliminate dust motes like that. Again, you guys keep showing how little you know about that which you pretend to be capable of "revealing" as "hoaxes."
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Re: Fakery in Orbit: THE ISS

Unread postby simonshack on Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:03 pm

astronut wrote: Aside from the ISS in daylight video, my best night video is probably this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E6bQcvT9W4


That's truly impressive, Astronut! So this would be your best night video of the ISS - dated 2011 ? :)

Image

As one of your three Youtube comments says: "Amazing! Lots of details visible, I just got a blurry spot...."

However, it seems that this guy Dirk Ewers had rather better luck/or equipment than you, back in 2007/2008:

full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDlRm87fQaY

Now, regarding the colors of the solar panels. That's an interesting question indeed.
This is what you wrote regarding that "Fakinghoaxer's" CGI video I submitted (see my previous post) :

astronut wrote: I will also say he did try to correct one major error that any moron could see; the color of the solar panels is all wrong.


So, what color are the ISS solar panels supposed to be? This was, in fact, a question that I posted at the very beginning of this thread (have you read this thread at all, btw?):

Image

I also have questions regarding the central support pylons of the solar panels, so please read this early post of mine :

THE WONDROUS BATSHIP: viewtopic.php?p=2354576#p2354576

I really do hope you will address my questions in a comprehensive and articulate manner. If you do know things that I don't know, I will gladly stand corrected as regards my growing suspicions of the ISS being a total hoax. But first, you will have to make a very good case in defense of its authenticity - and this means answering the many questions posted (not only by myself) on this 35-page-long thread. And no, we are not "conspiracy theorists", as you say - or "stalkers", or much less "dangerous individuals". All we ask for, is answers to questions that we legitimately have raised - concerning the ISS.
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Re: Fakery in Orbit: THE ISS

Unread postby reichstag fireman on Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:11 am

astronut wrote:For the record, I used: [arranged in list form, RF]

  • a Meade 8" LX200 Classic Schmidt-Cassegrain telescope,
  • Brent Boshart's Satellite Tracker software,
  • a Meade LPI strapped to the viewfinder
  • a modified Samsung SDC-435 at prime focus
  • a 2x barlow
  • a video capture card
  • anti-vibration pads


Perhaps you can answer some questions, please.

What magnification was the telescope when you obtained your footage of the Near Earth Object we call the "ISS".
To what extent (if any) did you crop the original vjdeo frames captured from your scope?
i.e. how much of the original field of view is present in the Youtube footage (as a basic percentage of area in the raw frames)
What video capture hardware did you use to digitise the frames?
What post-processing did you undertake on the frame sequence?

----------

"We cannot renew an illusion once we have seen through it" --- Tolsoi
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Re: Fakery in Orbit: THE ISS

Unread postby fbenario on Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:41 am

Libero wrote:Pink-haired people preaching your photographic prowess while promoting your promising poetry?

Alarmingly astounding, amazingly adept, astonishingly awe-inspiring, alluringly attractive [example of] alliteration!

Very well-done, Libero. You've made my day better! Thank you.
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