OSLO and UTØYA, 7/22 2011

[HonestlyNow]

. . .there is so much video on this event, which i firmly believe to be real footage, . . .

So, pick one or a few examples which you firmly believe are real.

[upstream]

upstream,

there is so much video on this event, which i firmly believe to be real footage, that you guys has denoted as being fake, I honestly don't believe a video made by me would be treated any differently. Nothing beats seeing things and talking to real people in real life. Imho it even beats the internet. Travel in europe is now so cheap and so easy, that if the existence of this event is in doubt that is a really small price to pay to get some info. And might be fun. Doesn't need to be Simon, I'm sure you guys have other members you also agree to trust.

Dear oslo29112011,

Yes, there is "so much video" that has been denoted as fake. Difference is, the source of those videos is the mainstream media. You, however, are a true person (right?), your video will not be judged to the same degree. I promise you. We will give you a fair shake.

And anyways, if we denounce your video as fake, when it is in fact real, than it's just another piece of evidence proving your argument? How does that hurt you?

You say,

I think you'll be surprised at how quickly you will find people with real stories to tell.

If this is the case, my request should be no problem.

Your judgement that we will automatically decry your video as fake is intellectually dishonest. I've given you no evidence to conclude that point.

So...Given all that...Is your answer yes or no?

[Makkonen]

b/Visit the "memorial" by the busstop by utøya. Yes it's a busstop, so it's possible to take a buss there for real.
It would be wrong of me to suggest you "borrow" a boat and visit the island itself.

If this isn't trolling, I'll be...

Even if the "memorial" wasn't a complete fabrication (which it obviously is), don't you think already the idea of a "bus stop memorial" (for the supposed victims of a massacre, no less!) is laughably, macabrely absurd? Do you honestly think such a thing has any basis in any reality?

[oslo29112011]

Dear Makkonen,
Your nick sounds Finnish to me, you are not far away, you can easily visit these sites and see them for yourself.
The busstop memorial was an impromptu one because it was the nearest you could get when they re-opened the road past utøya. These kind of spots turn up everywhere at the perimeters of police closed off areas on big accidents and disasters. I haven't seen this one in person, but my father has. He participated on this camp many times in his youth. I trust him on his word it is for real.

Upstream,
I would feel very uncomfortable sticking a camera up peoples nose asking those kind of questions. And I would not advice anyone visiting Oslo for answers try it either, a nice polite conversation with an interested, foreign visitor, I suspect would get people a lot more talkative.
Plus, I know several people from the mainstream media, I know journalists from VG and NRK. I know at least one of the photographers mentioned in this thread as a faker. I know politicians from arbeiderpartiet, theres several of them even in my family, I know several survivors from the Island. One of my closest friends were only 250 meters from where the bomb went off. I was less than a kilometer away and felt the blast myself. If your theories are correct, I am not to be trusted.
Go see for yourself, go talk to people, visit the next court hearing, or the case itself when it starts in april, don't trust me on it.

Honestlynow,
I believe that every single piece of video shown in this 4 hour(7.00PM-11PM 22.07.11)NRK news cast, and all other videos I have seen relating to this event are for real. I cannot speak for the videos I haven't seen. http://www.nrk.no/nett-tv/klipp/761196/#categories

And please keep coming up with good, honest questions, I'll hopefully do my best to clear up some misunderstandings.


edit:Here is a better link to the NRK news broadcasts from 22.07. Yes, I believe it is all real.

edit 2: This time I'll actually include the link http://www.nrk.no/nett-tv/klipp/761292/

[simonshack]

He bought "chemicals" worth NOK 120 ($20) from this Polish outfit. Hardly 1000 kg of fertiliser.

Oh, really?

Anyway, if ABB didn't get the material for his bomb from Poland, from where did he get it?.

From "Felleskjøpet".

http://nrk.no/nyheter/norge/1.7735393

Oh, really?

I distinctly remember reading in the newspapers (around July 25) that Breivik had purchased "LARGE QUANTITIES OF CHEMICALS FROM A POLISH COMPANY". We do read the newspapers, Lauring dear...

Here:
The Telegraph - July 25, 2011

"Anders Behring Breivik came to the attention of Norway’s intelligence services in March after he bought a large quantity of chemicals from a Polish company, it has emerged."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... March.html

and here:
La Repubblica - July 25, 2011

"La segnalazione era arrivata dopo l'acquisto di un'ingente quantità di prodotti chimici da un'azienda polacca."
http://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2011/07 ... -19574743/

But - of course - who is to trust the newspapers? Silly me.

*****************************

And what to make of the fact that those two large European newspapers published - ON THE SAME DAY - two conflicting death-toll "corrections" issued by the Norwegian Police? And BOTH "wrong?"

The Telegraph reported, on July 25 2011
"At a press conference, the police admitted that the death toll from the attack on the island - earlier said to be at least 85 - was unexpectedly reduced downwards to 68."

La Repubblica reported - on July 25, 2011:
"La polizia ha fatto sapere di avere rivisto al ribasso il conto delle vittime: da 93 a 76 (68 sull'isola e 8 a Oslo)".
("The police has let it be known that they have reviewed the death counts downwards: from 93 to 76 (68 on the island and 8 in Oslo").

So, on July 25 - THREE DAYS AFTER THE EVENT - Italians 'knew' there were 76 victims (down from 93) while British readers 'knew' there were 68 (down from "at least 85").

Later, of course, we were all finally informed that Breivik's victims were, "in fact", 69 in all...

What a sorry mess.

[Heiwa]

Hi guys, I'll be happy to provide some answers for you. ... He lived at a farm, was registered as a farmer, and could as such legally order several tons of fertilizer.
He long term rented a VW Crafter from Avis.
How he managed to create the bomb, and load the car, he discusses himself in his "manifesto".

Mange takk, or whatever. You say that ABB describes somewhere how he himself loaded a 1000+ kg fertilizer bomb in a car. But how? Did he lift it in? Or push it? Or was ABB superstrong?
And ... does actually fertilizer + diesel = bomb?

[oslo29112011]

He bought "chemicals" worth NOK 120 ($20) from this Polish outfit. Hardly 1000 kg of fertiliser.

Oh, really?

Anyway, if ABB didn't get the material for his bomb from Poland, from where did he get it?.

From "Felleskjøpet".

http://nrk.no/nyheter/norge/1.7735393

Oh, really?

I distinctly remember reading in the newspapers (around July 25) that Breivik had purchased "LARGE QUANTITIES OF CHEMICALS FROM A POLISH COMPANY". We do read the newspapers, Lauring dear...

Here:
The Telegraph - July 25, 2011

"Anders Behring Breivik came to the attention of Norway’s intelligence services in March after he bought a large quantity of chemicals from a Polish company, it has emerged."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... March.html

and here:
La Repubblica - July 25, 2011

"La segnalazione era arrivata dopo l'acquisto di un'ingente quantità di prodotti chimici da un'azienda polacca."
http://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2011/07 ... -19574743/

But - of course - who is to trust the newspapers? Silly me.

And what to make of the fact that those two large European newspapers published - ON THE SAME DAY - these two conflicting death-toll "corrections" issued by the Norwegian Police? And BOTH "wrong?"

The Telegraph reported, on July 25 2011
"At a press conference, the police admitted that the death toll from the attack on the island - earlier said to be at least 85 - was unexpectedly reduced downwards to 68."

La Repubblica reported - on July 25, 2011:
"La polizia ha fatto sapere di avere rivisto al ribasso il conto delle vittime: da 93 a 76 (68 sull'isola e 8 a Oslo)".
("The police has let it be known that they have reviewed the death counts downwards: from 93 to 76 (68 on the island and 8 in Oslo").

I think you will need to take into account that July 25th was still very early after the event. Bad translators, and numbers thrown around abound. However, in his manifesto, widely available on the internet, already on the 23rd he himself mentions buying fertilizer for his bomb at felleskjøpet, he explains how this combined with the discretion and space available to make the bomb on a farm was the reason he lived there. The police found several tons left there. It is also a type of bomb consisting of ingredients that simply cannot be forbidden in a modern society. Fertilizer + diesel. It's supposedly shitty hard work and unhealthy to make, he is self pitying a lot about that in the manifesto, but it is virtually unbanneable. Beats importing illegal stuff from poland, which was only used to make the timed fuse.

Why the death toll was adjusted down, after being announced as 80+ at utøya at 3.50am on the morning of the 23th(see broadcast link) is beyond me too. Someone did a bad job at that.

Heiwa,
Yes. fertilizer+diesel=bomb. Google it.
He didn't lift the bomb as one piece. How could he? however it was separated into lots of smaller bags, the first ones triggers the rest.
Also described in the manifesto.

[Heiwa]

Hi guys, I'll be happy to provide some answers for you. ... He used more than a glock, he used a rifle as well. (a Ruger Mini).
The vegetation on the island is not that dense. According to an acquaintance of mine that was on the island when it happened, and my parents which actually met each other on one of these camps on utøya in the 70's, hiding places are scarce.

He used more than a Glock! You sure? A rifle! So that explains how ABB managed to kill/injure 130+ persons in about an hour + calling police on mobile phone several times. Sorry oslo++ you just fantasize. Have you ever fired a pistol or a rifle and hit anything while making telephone calls?

Re Utøya - I thought the place was full of places where you could fuck without getting disturbed. Isn't that the whole purpose of the camp where your parents met? Ask them.

[Heiwa]

Heiwa,
... He didn't lift the bomb as one piece. How could he? however it was separated into lots of smaller bags, the first ones triggers the rest.
Also described in the manifesto.

Did you help him loading? What was each bag? 30 kg? So 33 bags of fertilizer/diesel mixture was loaded in the minibus and then? Where was the detonator fitted?
Described in the manifesto?

You sound like a terrorist, oslo##.

[upstream]

Upstream,
I would feel very uncomfortable sticking a camera up peoples nose asking those kind of questions. And I would not advice anyone visiting Oslo for answers try it either, a nice polite conversation with an interested, foreign visitor, I suspect would get people a lot more talkative.
Plus, I know several people from the mainstream media, I know journalists from VG and NRK. I know at least one of the photographers mentioned in this thread as a faker. I know politicians from arbeiderpartiet, theres several of them even in my family, I know several survivors from the Island. One of my closest friends were only 250 meters from where the bomb went off. I was less than a kilometer away and felt the blast myself. If your theories are correct, I am not to be trusted.
Go see for yourself, go talk to people, visit the next court hearing, or the case itself when it starts in april, don't trust me on it.

Huh? But you said,

I only see one problem with that approach.
No way you guys will accept video as evidence. It'll just be another bunch of psy-ops.

So now you TWO problems with that approach? How fortunate for you, and unfortunate for us.

Leave troll, you're here to waste everybody's time and create circular arguments. Go away.

The trolls are invading.

[oslo29112011]

Heiwa,
I really almost felt like one writing that, thank you very much.
He had more than an hour, he phoned the police twice, both very short conversations. Slightly more than a half a minute each time. And he was the only one armed on a tiny island full of kids. In a police uniform. Yes it's thinkable he killed that many.
And no, I'm not asking my parents about the best spots for sex on utøya. I think most people can relate to that being an akward question.

Upstream.
I didn't think of reason number two in my first reply, sorry about that.

I've suggested a way out of the circular arguments which show up when people simply do not agree.
I suggested you make a trustable person check the places and people out first hand. Away from the internet and media.
Flight tickets start at €49 from all over europe.

[Heiwa]

Heiwa,
I really almost felt like one writing that, thank you very much.
He had more than an hour, he phoned the police twice, both very short conversations. Slightly more than a half a minute each time. And he was the only one armed on a tiny island full of kids. In a police uniform. Yes it's thinkable he killed that many.
And no, I'm not asking my parents about the best spots for sex on utøya. I think most people can relate to that being an akward question.

Questions were do you know anything about (1) guns and (2) loading 30 kg bags part of a bomb into a car? You sound like an ABB accomplice!
I really hope some Norwegian police (the few that can) read this forum to finally understand and get into the picture (and then slowly explain it to the colleagues) to finally act as the Norwegian female cross country skiers.

[simonshack]

I think you will need to take into account that July 25th was still very early after the event. Bad translators, and numbers thrown around abound.

(...)

Why the death toll was adjusted down, after being announced as 80+ at utøya at 3.50am on the morning of the 23th(see broadcast link) is beyond me too. Someone did a bad job at that.

So what is it gonna be, Oslo dear?

Do you think three days are too short a time to expect correct death toll figures? Or is it "beyond you" that this could have happened in a pretty modern, civilized country like Norway? Have you formed a serious, mature opinion on this - or are you just typing away whatever comes to your mind?

For your information, it was the Norwegian police itself that issued the early figure of "92 CONFIRMED DEAD". I can't see how a bad translator can get that wrong. And numbers of dead people don't usually get "thrown around" in Norway - nor in any civilized country. This absurd phenomena only happens - as this forum can teach you - in the context of government-sponsored psyops.

[oslo29112011]

Heiwa,
I think a lot of curious norwegians has become experts on car bombs and weapons use over the last few months.
I read trough the whole manifesto with a morbid fascination, and so i suspect, did loads of norwegians trying to comprehend any logic behind this.
Wathever logic there was, wasn't political or racial. Only self-obsessed grandeur, as confirmed today by the psychiatrists advising the prosecution.

Simon,
There was 3 different police districts involved, hospitals in 3 different districts, they announced the wrong death toll less than 9 hours after the event, before Breivik was even transported off the island. These numbers where not publicly adjusted until a few days later, to be absolutely sure of it's correctness, as people where still critically injured in hospitals.
I do question the wisdom of that decision, however i do not find it unlikely.

[simonshack]

Simon,
There was 3 different police districts involved, hospitals in 3 different districts, they announced the wrong death toll less than 9 hours after the event, before Breivik was even transported off the island. These numbers where not publicly adjusted until a few days later, to be absolutely sure of it's correctness, as people where still critically injured in hospitals.
I do question the wisdom of that decision, however i do not find it unlikely.

To report 92 CONFIRMED DEAD is not just a 'decision' which one may judge to be "have been wise or not". It is a totally inexplicable cock-up by the Norwegian police - immensely worsened by the fact that it was actually released to the worldwide press 24 hours later - and then absurdly got 'corrected' and released AGAIN to the worldwide press in two different ways ("68" and "76") THREE FULL DAYS LATER.

Also - would you like to comment on the story of Mrs Aamodt - who was told by the Norwegian police her son was dead, then alive in a hospital(2 days later), and then finally confirmed dead again - ONLY 5 DAYS LATER? Do you also find that story "not unlikely"?
"It's as if my son died twice" http://www.cluesforum.info/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2362512

All you can do, dear Oslo, is feign/and pretend that all this is not absurd - in the face of plain common sense. Why you would do so is anyone's guess. In any case, I'm afraid this makes you appear to any normal person as either one of 3 things:

1: A vacuous, unreasonable/whimsical person
2: A stupid person
3: A troll