Strange stories of The Beatles

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Re: Strange stories of The Beatles

Postby nonhocapito on Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:35 am

Maat wrote:Has anyone considered the possibility that the entire "PID conspiracy story" itself was a 'perp-created' and/or 'hijacked' & fed PsyOp experiment, to test/monitor and refine their methods for distracting and 'herding' people's perceptions? Especially since it was originally started in and perpetuated by the Media.

i.e. What if no Beatles were ever "replaced", but the initial rumors deliberately planted and nurtured, without the Beatles' knowledge at all? Their hippy-style influence and anti-war stance was hardly something the PIC would have been happy about, so didn't the 'conspiracy' ideas help to distract if not entirely discredit that influence (as the perps would have hoped)?

We now know they did just that for 9-11 to control perceptions and cyber-herd people into disinfo dead-ends (encouraging the belief that 3,000 people really "died" in the WTC etc.). Remembering that what is too hard (or impossible) for them to do for real, they fake it by creating the illusion that it happened. They're not "Illuminati" just Illusionists :P
Just a thought, anyway :)


I see what you mean but I don't think we can imagine the Beatles to be unaware of the "Paul is dead" clues back then. No chance. Don't forget Lennon singing "here's another clue for you all, the walrus was Paul". By that time (white album, magical mystery tour) it is clear that the Beatles are planting the clues themselves -- not simply as happenstance on album covers, but also in the texts of the songs that they apparently write and sing. And BTW, I think this is already clear in Sgt Pepper (A day in the life).

I can easily see the "Paul is dead" conspiracy theory being planted and fake -- but the story must be more complex than simply the media playing it against the Beatles. The Beatles were complicit. This much we know. Maybe it is all a prank, maybe a distraction, maybe Paul was replaced after he accidentally died because the band just didn't want to get off the tiger they were riding -- and the clues were their "insurance" in case rumors started flying.

In any case our analysis of the Beatles can and must -- I believe - go beyond the "Paul is dead" theory, but not in the sense of acquitting everyone -- rather as another pretext to start investigating closely what happened in the second half of the past century with the birth of rock and pop music. Was it a spontaneous phenomena -- or a crucial instrument of propaganda and a transformational cultural tool? Was it what the people really wanted (the loud music, the dancing, the obliviousness) or was it something imposed on them?

Why the crowds booed Dylan when he carried his public from acoustic folk to electronic rock?


What the people really wanted? (Maybe to continue the, say, Woody Guthrie experience of a music for everyone, for everyone to write and sing and share?) And what was instead wanted for them? (Maybe for them to be subdued by a music that only "others" could produce and give to them, creating the parallel world of "music stars" that was so hard to get into?)

This at least is what interests me... Even today, if I (as I very rarely do) go back to listening to albums I once revered such as "meddle", "exile on main street" or "revolver", I cannot help to wonder if I am enjoying authentic products of popular culture, or rather genetically-engineered instruments of mass distraction, if not of brain-twisting-and-washing.
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Re: Strange stories of The Beatles

Postby Maat on Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:59 am

Nonho, I understand what you're saying but I don't think it needs to be made any more complicated than the synchronous evolution of converging elements, the action-reaction of an unpredictable process from events (contrived & natural, conscious & unconscious) involving creative individuals and their audience. As one personally familiar with the artistic creative process, ideas and inspiration can come in odd ways from unexpected sources — as though by atmospheric 'osmosis' at times (and that's without using any hallucinogenic drugs! :lol:). But it certainly can't be 'forced' or 'imposed'.

So I'm not sure anyone can know for certain what the Beatles knew or didn't know about the original cause of the PID rumor, but wouldn't it be a normal reaction for the creative larrikins that they were to simply play on what they saw as a joke anyway? Although, of course, a lot of what has been claimed as "clues" in songs have been shown to be misrepresented and/or misheard. e.g. The "I buried Paul" meme (on the end of "Strawberry Fields"), listen to it here). Lennon was quoted in a 1980 Playboy interview: "I said 'cranberry sauce'. That's all I said. Some people like ping-pong, other people like digging over graves. Some people will do anything rather than be here now."

However, apart from some initial suggestion input (e.g. typically controversial Lennon suggesting Jesus & Hitler be included among the 'famous people' for Sgt. Pepper's cover, which weren't), they would've had nothing much to do with the final production details of any album cover artwork; that kind of thing is under the control of art directors and record company executives (no matter how big the 'star(s)', marketing directors have the final say on anything that affects sales $)
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Re: Strange stories of The Beatles

Postby nonhocapito on Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:39 am

Maat, you say that the Beatles were inspired by the rumors and played on them, and that they had no control on the final result of their covers. But these are not facts, rather ideas one can have. We don't know for sure.

It is nice to try and save these artists from the shame of having been involved in something so weird and -very likely- about "occultism". But, you know, we have grown too big for television and the media, we can grow and become too big for the Beatles as well. I wouldn't mind.
(And, isn't an album like "Best of dark horse" -- for example-- by George Harrison a collection of occultism hymns? Where that comes from?)

We cannot know for sure about these things. The clues are many and are weird. It matters little whether the clues point to some sort of reality, or who put the clues there, because we cannot give a conclusive answer to neither question.

This is the most famous band in the history of pop we are talking about. I doubt the clues happened by accident.

Anyway, as I said, I think the really interesting stuff is beyond these clues-- and into the (potentially) artificial nature of these music groups for the masses. Who created them, who made them famous, who controlled them, who pulled the plug on them.

Just like with the big hollywood stars: the vast power they hold is not --cannot be-- left alone and in liberty to express itself. From a certain level up, it must be harnessed and controlled.

Just as an example, imagine what would happen if Angelina Jolie would wake up tomorrow, and decided to tell the world to pay attention to the material the media spreads, because it is often entirely fake. What impact it could have on the running psyops? Or what would happen if that hack Charlie Sheen, instead of actively working in support of the Alex Jones psyop, had decided one day to speak out about 9/11 being fake. Do you believe for a second that this could happen in our world?

The deafening silence about media fakery is proof that all these people who deal with hollywood or the media at the higher levels, and hence must know about the system to some degree, must be under some form of control or restraint.
Otherwise, instead than producing an album called "the dark side of the moon", the pink floyd could have produced an album called "the fake side of the moon" -- what would have happened then?

Same goes: what would have happened if the Beatles had not been under some form of control? Are we really to believe that their influence went against the interest of the establishment? Is that why they were made "baronets" or why they have been worshiped and hyped by the media for decades?
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Re: Strange stories of The Beatles

Postby Maat on Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:33 am

nonhocapito wrote:Maat, you say that the Beatles were inspired by the rumors and played on them, and that they had no control on the final result of their covers. But these are not facts, rather ideas one can have. We don't know for sure.

I didn't "say" they were per se, I simply suggested the possibility per natural reaction, and what the normal process that product, artwork, and marketing follows and why.

It is nice to try and save these artists from the shame of having been involved in something so weird and -very likely- about "occultism". But, you know, we have grown too big for television and the media, we can grow and become too big for the Beatles as well. I wouldn't mind.
(And, isn't an album like "Best of dark horse" -- for example-- by George Harrison a collection of occultism hymns? Where that comes from?)

Actually, I'm not really interested enough in the Beatles particularly to try to "save" them from anything — only offering alternate possibilities and perspectives from my experience to help balance the one-way tilt ;)
I've never heard of any "occultism" in Harrison's music before, though :blink: I'm familiar with his Hindu/spiritual themed songs (which have nothing to do with the "occult") and his Cloud 9 album.

We cannot know for sure about these things. The clues are many and are weird. It matters little whether the clues point to some sort of reality, or who put the clues there, because we cannot give a conclusive answer to neither question.

This is the most famous band in the history of pop we are talking about. I doubt the clues happened by accident.

I agree, I said I'm not sure anyone can know for certain what they knew or didn't know about how it started (or by whom).

Anyway, as I said, I think the really interesting stuff is beyond these clues-- and into the (potentially) artificial nature of these music groups for the masses. Who created them, who made them famous, who controlled them, who pulled the plug on them.

Just like with the big hollywood stars: the vast power they hold is not --cannot be-- left alone and in liberty to express itself. From a certain level up, it must be harnessed and controlled.

Controlling most Hollywood actors is easy, by their own desire to remain at or attain the heights of fame and the money it brings — vested interest (don't bite the hand that feeds ya). Music groups are varied, some are literally manufactured (e.g. Bay City Rollers, Milly Vanilly, Spice Girls), but the music recording industry is a weird world. Who makes it and who doesn't, according to the stories of so many, is a combination of talent, timing, trends, connections and luck.

... what would have happened if the Beatles had not been under some form of control? Are we really to believe that their influence went against the interest of the establishment? Is that why they were made "baronets" or why they have been worshiped and hyped by the media for decades?

Vested interest again, Media and celebrity are symbiotic. True, although they had some counter-culture influence, they weren't the most outspoken anti-establishment group — except for John who was 'coincidentally' shot.
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Re: Strange stories of The Beatles

Postby lux on Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:58 am

Maat wrote:
lux wrote:Dear Lux,
That kind of gratuitous sarcasm and evasiveness is neither appropriate nor reasonable since you claimed there was "evidence" that convinced you that all four Beatles were replaced, but despite direct questions and challenges still haven't offered anything in four pages but vague speculation, manipulated 'photo analyses' and fraudulent 'experts' to support it. :unsure:

As I said, I'm simply trying to understand how you believe such a thing is possible and why.



Dear Maat,

As I've said it is not possible to post here the evidence I studied to come to the conclusions I came to. The best evidence is largely NOT on the internet and so cannot be linked to in an internet forum. I did post some links to some things I found interesting or amusing which were not specifically directed at you but simply for members who find the topic interesting. In any case they were not intended to "convince" anyone in and of themselves. Again, it is not possible to post links to most of the real evidence as it is not on the internet.

If anything I have posted has caused upset or bad blood -- please know that it was intended in friendly jest only.

This is a hot topic. It can cause various emotionally charged reactions on a par with Apollo, 9/11 and so on. As I have no desire to get into an argument with anyone about this (or any) subject I am bowing out of this thread.

As the person known as Ringo would say, "Peace and love, peace and love, peace and love." :)
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Re: Strange stories of The Beatles

Postby nonhocapito on Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:46 pm

Maat wrote:Vested interest again, Media and celebrity are symbiotic. True, although they had some counter-culture influence, they weren't the most outspoken anti-establishment group — except for John who was 'coincidentally' shot.


Well, OK, but with this you're not moving an inch away from the official truths about the Beatles that we all know by heart. John was politically motivated (or maybe he was just an heroine addict with little left to give), George was spiritually involved (or maybe he was "spiritual" and interested in eastern culture the same way Ailester Crowley was), Ringo was a drunk, Paul was the good guy... whatever. :rolleyes:

Maybe you're right, the story of the Beatles and the birth of pop music is all there on the surface, and I am being an idiot, however... let's not forget that these characterizations and explanations are just the "stories" that we have been given over the years. I don't see a particular reason to hold on to them with much conviction. Nothing prevents us from thinking that they might have been all "scripted" by the PR agencies, to cover the widest possible audience, while kick-starting certain global cultural transformations for all generations.
"She's leaving home, bye-bye"...
In any case... maybe it is not the right time now, but personally I hope that this thread about the "strange stories of the beatles" will get somewhere -- away from the official storylines that I find very unsatisfactory.
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Re: Strange stories of The Beatles

Postby Maat on Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:40 pm

nonhocapito wrote:
Maat wrote:Vested interest again, Media and celebrity are symbiotic. True, although they had some counter-culture influence, they weren't the most outspoken anti-establishment group — except for John who was 'coincidentally' shot.

Well, OK, but with this you're not moving an inch away from the official truths about the Beatles that we all know by heart. John was politically motivated (or maybe he was just an heroine addict with little left to give), George was spiritually involved (or maybe he was "spiritual" and interested in eastern culture the same way Ailester Crowley was), Ringo was a drunk, Paul was the good guy... whatever. :rolleyes:

Huh? :huh: I don't even know what the "official truths" about the Beatles were/are supposed to be to begin with, and anything reported in the Media about celebrities' personal lives was the last thing I would ever take as 'gospel' :lol:

Believe it or not, that's one thing I learned many years ago about the media — nothing they ever 'reported' on celebrities of any kind could be trusted. It was always some out of context snippet or perspective exaggerated and spun to absurdity; I twigged to that even as a kid :P (before learning the publicity=marketing reasons behind it) e.g. I've never heard of John using "heroin" (only LSD), or Ringo being a "drunk", or Paul being a "nice guy". I only noticed what they did (consistently) and said themselves, and heard their music I could read and interpret for myself (not 'told' what it supposedly meant by 3rd parties). Therefore, isn't it possible I could be less tainted by whatever has been hyped about them? ;)

Maybe you're right, the story of the Beatles and the birth of pop music is all there on the surface, and I am being an idiot, however... let's not forget that these characterizations and explanations are just the "stories" that we have been given over the years. I don't see a particular reason to hold on to them with much conviction.

As I said, since I couldn't be influenced by "stories" I never listened to, I'm not 'holding onto' anything I haven't observed myself in context, like George embracing Hindu philosophy (something I am quite familiar with), evident in his lyrics, music (e.g. the sitar) and real life activities. So where (from whom) did the "Aleister Crowley" and "occult" suggestions spring from? :unsure:

Nothing prevents us from thinking that they might have been all "scripted" by the PR agencies, to cover the widest possible audience, while kick-starting certain global cultural transformations for all generations.
"She's leaving home, bye-bye"...
In any case... maybe it is not the right time now, but personally I hope that this thread about the "strange stories of the beatles" will get somewhere -- away from the official storylines that I find very unsatisfactory.

Music stars are, of course, a commodity and marketed accordingly (for public perception, sensationalist publicity = $$$), but there is still a limit to how far any creative, artistic individuals can be controlled and pushed. If they were really deliberately 'controlled' for some global cultural purpose it's strange how quickly they broke up. But since they apparently began as 14-15 year olds, maybe it's not so strange they would outgrow each other and the oppressive hype. :)

Of course that doesn't mean their fame, music and everything about them (real or invented) wasn't used in every possible way for maximum advantage by all who could benefit or profit in some form, directly or indirectly, from corporations and power brokers to attention seekers/opportunists/parasites of all kinds (wherever a juicy carcass is, you'll see eagles and vultures gather ;)). That's why I have never envied any entertainment celebrities, ever. That loss of privacy and freedom to create and breathe without being publicly vivisected would be unbearable for me.
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Re: Strange stories of The Beatles

Postby HappyCynic on Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:52 pm

So what is the deal with the beatles? Sum it up as if I am five years old. Thanks.
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Re: Strange stories of The Beatles

Postby Maat on Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:44 pm

HappyCynic wrote:So what is the deal with the beatles? Sum it up as if I am five years old. Thanks.

"You will know them by their fruits." ;)
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Re: Strange stories of The Beatles

Postby reel.deal on Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:25 pm


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQSS6YMOhu4

This 4 hour Scorcese biopic was split & shown on UK BBC over the last couple of Sundays...
caught some of it, pretty good stuff... i always did like George's Beatles songs.

:)
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Re: Strange stories of The Beatles

Postby nonhocapito on Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:37 pm

Maat wrote:As I said, since I couldn't be influenced by "stories" I never listened to, I'm not 'holding onto' anything I haven't observed myself in context, like George embracing Hindu philosophy (something I am quite familiar with), evident in his lyrics, music (e.g. the sitar) and real life activities. So where (from whom) did the "Aleister Crowley" and "occult" suggestions spring from? :unsure:


Well everything you have been written about the Beatles in this thread seems to be coming straight from the official bioepic, that's all. Everyone knows about Harrison's sitar or about Lennon's political commitment, or how the Beatles were four kids, it's like Beatles 101.

The point is thinking out of the box, even if it means being tentative and making mistakes. I think that's more interesting than confirming to each other what we think are known facts. And if the topic really does not ring with one, one can always ignore it... Who're we hurtin'? :)

You say there be such and such differences between the music industry and the film industry. Are you sure these two worlds are so far apart? Do you take from first hand experience? Any room for doubt there?

So much of the top-layer music industry today appears to be controlled and about control, bordering even to mind-control. Isn't this a hint that tells us to go back a while and ask ourselves if it hasn't always been that way?

Once again, I ask: was the birth of rock and pop music a spontaneous event?

It goes without saying that, to start answering the above question, we better put our musical taste and idols aside. They can only get in the way.

As to Polyester Crowley, that's just an idea -- I haven't researched George Harrison's songs in particular, I only had here and there the feeling that his spiritual side might have been hiding something else. The Thelema bullcrap comes to mind since it is syncretic satanism that borrows from oriental philosophies a lot -- all in the good fun of undermining & eroding Christianity to leave room for something else. I guess the "new age of enlightenment", to tell it with Sam Malone.
Lennon took care of the mandatory political rebellion, the social sanctions against the "old". What was Harrison's role there?

(for comparison: “My overriding interest was in cabbala and Crowleyism. That whole dark and rather fearsome never-world of the wrong side of the brain.” -- David Bowie
http://vigilantcitizen.com/moviesandtv/ ... d-control/)

But hey, so everything is normal with the Beatles. Fine. Let's listen to the beautiful songs. Here comes the sun king...
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Re: Strange stories of The Beatles

Postby reel.deal on Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:47 am

nonhocapito wrote: was the birth of rock and pop music a spontaneous event?


Yes & No. Music has been around for aeons. What was (is?) the sound of New Orleans ?
Appalachean, African Laments, Delta (pre-) blues, Celtic Methodist folk; French Accordians; Cajun, Flamenco, Mexican Marriachi ?
& thats well before we even get to the 20th century.

Then the American 20th century... Big Band, Swing, Ragtime, Blues, Jazz; ...then rock'n'roll, then 'pop';
were The Beatles just 4 cheeky lads from Liverpool with a love of loud guitars ? ...yes.
were The Beatles picked up & co-opted into the centre of the Zionist controlled entertainment industry;
by a media-savvy well connected Brian Epstein; yes aswell.
Does that make The Beatles 'perps' ?

:huh:

but, y'know, i'm down with 'whatever'...
;)
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Re: Strange stories of The Beatles

Postby fbenario on Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:53 am

nonhocapito wrote:Once again, I ask: was the birth of rock and pop music a spontaneous event?

After reading Dave MacGowan's Laurel Canyon series, the answer to that question seems to be 'No'.
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Re: Strange stories of The Beatles

Postby Heiwa on Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:34 am

nonhocapito wrote:Once again, I ask: was the birth of rock and pop music a spontaneous event?



Plenty of drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, women, parties ... and musical talent assisted.
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Re: Strange stories of The Beatles

Postby antipodean on Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:59 am

Maybe the answer is in the lyrics of "How Do You Sleep" from Lennon's imagine album.

So Sgt. Pepper took you by surprise
You better see right through that mother's eyes
Those freaks was right when they said you was dead
The one mistake you made was in your head

How do you sleep?
How do you sleep at night?

You live with straights who tell you, you was king
Jump when your momma tell you anything
The only thing you done was yesterday
And since you've gone you're just another day

How do you sleep?
How do you sleep at night?

How do you sleep?
How do you sleep at night?

A pretty face may last a year or two
But pretty soon they'll see what you can do
The sound you make is muzak to my ears
You must have learned something in all those years

How do you sleep?
How do you sleep at night?



full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK7CLXHSr1M

My take on this would be, Paul not being involved with Sgt Peppers.
Where it says 'since you've gone youre just another day', would indicate that Paul left whilst the Beatles were still together. It also suggests that Paul was alive & well post 1966.
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