THE DERAILING ROOM

A place to relax and socialize - to muse, think aloud and suggest

Re: Engineering disease

Unread postby HonestlyNow on Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:56 pm

patrix » December 16th, 2018, 5:44 pm wrote:>You did not inform me about ketosis at all because you are still stuck in the old paradigm.

I vote you stay out of this subject Kham because in these matters you seem to be acting like a disinformant. Not saying it's intentional. Human metabolism is pretty well charged you know, just as the stars above and to come strolling with "a new paradigm" on that without anything to refer to except maybe some YouTuber. Well that's just plain silly. Leave it a rest I'd say.

Just "Wow."
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Re: Engineering disease

Unread postby Observer on Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:05 am

ADMIN NOTICE (simon): post by Observer removed and saved in my "Cluesforum troll cache".
Last edited by Observer on Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Engineering Nutrition

Unread postby SacredCowSlayer on Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:11 pm

HonestlyNow » December 21st, 2018, 8:43 am wrote:
. . .

I was going to post this in the Derailing Room, due to the contentious nature of my writing, but I see that it is now locked. I will not apologize. I expected no less from this member.



Dear HonestlyNow,

To address your point above (re the Derailing Room, which I think should remain locked), I have created a place for such exchanges here. Please feel free to PM if you have any questions.
I will remove this post to the Derailing Room by the end of the day.

Sincerely,
scs

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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby ICfreely on Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:11 pm

"Methinks" that you are still stuck on the idea of…


Methinks that if you want clarification, then you should think twice about your choice of words.

Methinks that so long as people blindly follow any anti-establishment guru (Seyfried, Morse, etc...) they’ll be stuck in the mud.

Methinks that a bathroom (lymph)/kitchen (blood) does not a house make.

Methinks that most people have next to no appreciation for the holistic point of view espoused by people who have nothing to sell.

Methinks that I’d have to dedicate six months to a year to clarify (point by point) many of the misconceptions/false conclusions I’ve seen posted on the “Engineering Disease” thread.

Methinks that I've already provided many pearls/gems on that thread for anyone perceptive enough to detect them.

Methinks that locking the thread temporarily (if not permanently) isn’t a bad idea.
Last edited by ICfreely on Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby SacredCowSlayer on Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:25 pm

ICfreely » December 30th, 2018, 3:11 pm wrote:
"Methinks" that you are still stuck on the idea of…


Methinks that if you want clarification, then you should think twice about your choice of words.

Methinks that so long as people blindly follow any anti-establishment guru (Seyfried, Morris, etc...) they’ll be stuck in the mud.

Methinks that a bathroom (lymph)/kitchen (blood) does not a house make.

Methinks that most people have next to no appreciation for the holistic point of view espoused by people who have nothing to sell.

Methinks that I’d have to dedicate six months to a year to clarify (point by point) many of the misconceptions/false conclusions I’ve seen posted on the “Engineering Disease” thread.

Methinks that I've already provided many pearls/gems on that thread for anyone perceptive enough to detect them.

Methinks that locking the thread temporarily (if not permanently) isn’t a bad idea.


I sincerely appreciate all your great posts dear ICfreely. And thank you for understanding how difficult it is to moderate this forum.

I hope you stick around. Also please let me know if your PM is working.

Sincerely,
scs

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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby ICfreely on Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:03 am

I sincerely appreciate all your great posts dear ICfreely. And thank you for understanding how difficult it is to moderate this forum.

I hope you stick around. Also please let me know if your PM is working.


Thanks, SCS. I do and I will.



I was looking at clarification as to where you are coming from.



I come from the State of Unknowing. Forget about me. Concentrate your efforts on where you’re coming from.


That's why you want to feed your body alkaline-ash food.



I’ve performed ash analysis. It is an ex vivo experiment.


Ex vivo (Latin: "out of the living") means that which takes place outside an organism.



You burn foods in a laboratory setting to simulate what happens during digestion. Then you test the pH of the ash in order to classify the foods as either acid or alkaline.

Newsflash: Our bodies don’t burn food!

Ash analysis is so passé though. Nowadays PRAL is all the craze in the scientific community.


Influence of diet on acid-base balance.

Abstract

It is well established that diet and certain food components have a clear impact on acid-base balance. For adults, the following factors are involved: 1) the chemical composition of foods (i.e., their content of protein, chloride, phosphorus, sodium, potassium, calcium, and magnesium), 2) the different intestinal absorption rates of the relevant nutrients, 3) the metabolic generation of sulfate from sulfur-containing amino acids, 4) the grade of dissociation of phosphorus at the physiologic pH of 7.4, and 5) the ionic valence of calcium and magnesium. All these factors allow us to estimate the potential renal acid load (PRAL) of any given food or diet.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10923348/


Suffice to say, PRAL is as useful as tits on a bull.


If you only knew just how little we know you’d be shocked and amazed. You’d be liberated, my friend.


“To know that you do not know is the best. To think you know when you do not is a disease. Recognizing this disease as a disease is to be free of it.”
― Lao Tzu
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby ICfreely on Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:44 pm

This is the best clarity I can provide regarding where I'm coming from, dear HN & patrix,

Like the character Brooks in Shawshank Redemption we’re all institutionalized. We’ve become so accustomed to being told what to do by allopathic authorities that once we break free of their clutches we feel lost to a certain extent. We tend to gravitate towards the leadership of anti-establishment figures for guidance to fill in the power vacuum. In so doing, we feel the need to tout the virtues of our new leader to others. Telling them how they should live and what they should eat (The King is dead. Long live the new King.). Big mistake.

Personal health is a personal journey. We should be able to make choices free of coercion from others and not feel the need to coerce others. We should tell others what works for us personally not what will work for them. Who am I to tell you how to live? Instead, I’ll tell you how I live by sharing my personal experiences.

This time last year I had a routine annual checkup with my primary care provider. She’s a lovely well intentioned person. My first visit I provided a blood/urine sample and went back two weeks later for the results.

Her: Overall, your numbers look good (Whatever that means).
Me: Right on.
Her: Your LDL (“Bad” cholesterol), however, is slightly high so I’m going to prescribe—
Me: No thanks.
Her: Excuse me?
Me: Sorry, doc, but I don’t believe in “bad” cholesterol.
Her: What do you mean?
Me: I mean I don’t believe in “bad” cholesterol and don’t feel the need to lower it with statins. Not to mention their negative “side” effects, you know?
Her: (Smirking) Are you sure?
Me: (Smiling) Positive.
Her: OK.


She knows better than to ask me about vaccinations. You may be wondering why I have healthcare insurance and why I don’t avoid allopathic medicine altogether. That’s because I believe there is a place for it. Allopathic medicine is emergency medicine and nothing else. If I get in a catastrophic car accident, then my life could be saved by an ER surgeon. Outside of emergency care there’s no place for allopathy in healthcare. Not only do they not know the first thing about keeping you healthy, they’re (inadvertently) most responsible for getting you sick in the first place.

Iatrogenic
adjective
1. relating to illness caused by medical examination or treatment.


Same time last year I went in for an eye exam. The optometrist was a nice enough guy. I filled out a bunch of paperwork and went into the examination room. Right off the bat he told me that everything sight-wise falls apart after 40 we just have to learn to deal with it… He checked my eyes and had me read the charts. Then he proceeded to type away on his keyboard.

Me: So what’s the prognosis, doc?
Him: You’re not too bad.
Me: The numbers, doc. What are the numbers?
Him: You’re 20/20 near and farsighted.
Me: Cool. So I’m good to go?
Him: (Pointing to a selection of glasses) Your insurance covers all of these. They’re basically “over-the-counter.” You know, just in case you have trouble reading the back of a credit card.
Me: I’ll pass. But thanks anyway.
Him: Are you sure? They’re free.
Me: I’m positive. But thanks just the same.


Suffice to say, if I’d started using the glasses then my eyesight would slowly begin to deteriorate and I’d need stronger glasses which would further deteriorate my vision necessitating even stronger glasses.

I don’t believe in good-bad cholesterol, bacteria, fungi, etc. Authority isn’t my truth. Truth is my authority. I try to keep it simple.

Vaccines are the "gateway drug" that suck us into allopathic hell in early childhood and pharmaceutical medications further accelerate the downward spiral.

In the not too distant future general practitioners will go the way of the “dinosaur.” It will be specialists across the board. Moreover, the diagnosis of “diseases” will be performed by computers. Currently, MRI reports are computer generated.

People say, “Wow it’s like The Matrix. The machines are taking over.”

I say it’s more like the hospital scene from Idiocracy. The created can never surpass their creator. They’re only taking over if we think they can take over. Speaking of Idiocracy, all these arguments over microorganisms remind me of the rubes’ fascination with electrolytes.

Seriously, WTF are electrolytes?



Happy New Year everyone. :)
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby patrix on Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:10 pm

ICfreely » January 1st, 2019, 6:44 pm wrote:This is the best clarity I can provide regarding where I'm coming from, dear HN & patrix,
....
I don’t believe in good-bad cholesterol, bacteria, fungi, etc. Authority isn’t my truth. Truth is my authority. I try to keep it simple.
....
Happy New Year everyone. :)


I agree on Simons decision to close the Engineering disease/nutrition threads. I think that is the best option for now since I see no incentives from the participants in the thread to keep the discussions rational and factual.
To draw an analogy with 9/11 it's like those persons who shut you down when you try to discuss the image fakery aspect of the event by saying - It doesn't matter how they fooled us, the main thing is that they fooled us. I disagree with that mindset. It is key to understand how, and that is possible both with 9/11 and the hoaxes within medicine. Honest medical research do exist. We just never hear about it and it's cloaked with disinformation. Medicine is a science just like physics and the scientific method is applicable to figure things out. For example Thomas Seyfried disproved the gene theory of cancer more than ten years ago with a controlled experiment. And I think it would be interesting to discuss this and other medical matters in the context of mass deception. But I don't see that is possible at the moment. Ah well. Rome wasn't built in a day, and it won't be torn down in a moment either.

I wish you ICfreely and everyone else here a very Happy New Year

/Patrik
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby ICfreely on Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:59 am

I don’t believe in good-bad cholesterol, bacteria, fungi, etc. Authority isn’t my truth. Truth is my authority. I try to keep it simple


I came to the conclusion that there’s no such thing as good-bad cholesterol, bacteria, fungi, etc. after years of scientific research and dismantling many false premises and conclusions. But who am I, right? I’m certainly no authority like the Great Thomas Seyfried. No sir. Not me.


For example Thomas Seyfried disproved the gene theory of cancer more than ten years ago with a controlled experiment.



If that’s the case, dear patrix, then why may I ask is he proposing novel cancer therapeutics based on “personalized molecular therapies developed through the genome projects”?


Cancer as a metabolic disease: implications for novel therapeutics

Carcinogenesis. 2014 Mar; 35(3): 515–527.
Published online 2013 Dec 16. doi: 10.1093/carcin/bgt480
PMCID: PMC3941741
PMID: 24343361

Thomas N. Seyfried
,* Roberto E. Flores, Angela M. Poff, 1 and Dominic P. D’Agostino 1
Author information Article notes Copyright and License information Disclaimer
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.

Abstract

Emerging evidence indicates that cancer is primarily a metabolic disease involving disturbances in energy production through respiration and fermentation. The genomic instability observed in tumor cells and all other recognized hallmarks of cancer are considered downstream epiphenomena of the initial disturbance of cellular energy metabolism. The disturbances in tumor cell energy metabolism can be linked to abnormalities in the structure and function of the mitochondria. When viewed as a mitochondrial metabolic disease, the evolutionary theory of Lamarck can better explain cancer progression than can the evolutionary theory of Darwin. Cancer growth and progression can be managed following a whole body transition from fermentable metabolites, primarily glucose and glutamine, to respiratory metabolites, primarily ketone bodies. As each individual is a unique metabolic entity, personalization of metabolic therapy as a broad-based cancer treatment strategy will require fine-tuning to match the therapy to an individual’s unique physiology.
...
Implications for novel therapeutics
...
As each person is a unique metabolic entity, personalization of metabolic therapy as a broad-based cancer treatment strategy will require fine-tuning based on an understanding of individual human physiology. Also, personalized molecular therapies developed through the genome projects could be useful in targeting and killing those tumor cells that might survive the non-toxic whole body metabolic therapy. The number of molecular targets should be less in a few survivor cells of a small tumor than in a heterogeneous cell population of a large tumor. We would therefore consider personalized molecular therapy as a final strategy rather than as an initial strategy for cancer management. Non-toxic metabolic therapy should become the future of cancer treatment if the goal is to manage the disease without harming the patient. Although it will be important for researchers to elucidate the mechanistic minutia responsible for the therapeutic benefits, this should not impede an immediate application of this therapeutic strategy for cancer management or prevention.

Funding

National Institutes of Health (HD-39722;, NS-55195;, CA-102135); American Institute of Cancer Research; the Boston College Expense Fund (to T.N.S.); Scivation and Office of Naval Research (to D.P.D.).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3941741/


Do you think I came to the conclusion that there’s nothing scientific about evolution based on some irrational Biblical beliefs? The theory of evolution is based on irrational beliefs. Beliefs that have severely harmed and stymied scientific research across a multitude of disciplines.

Have I not scientifically dismantled it in the DNA, Einstein, Dinosaur and Engineering Disease threads?

Have i not demonstrated the fallacy of Genetic Determinism in the DNA thread?

The above publication is funded by the NIH and AICR for Heaven's sake. Do you really think they have any credibility on health issues?


Something is glaringly noticeable to me with regard to the two recently locked threads; there is an elephant in the room, and it's name is the Lymphatic System.


“Systems” are labels we attach to things in order to try to explain them in a more simplified manner. The body as a whole doesn’t know “systems.” Yes the lymphatic system plays a crucial role in human physiology. A role that has been intentionally ignored and distorted by the NIH, CDC and all the other alphabet authorities. But it’s not the be-all end-all.

I have nothing against Dr. Morse. He’s done a lot of good research. He’s helped many people. I’ve actually used some of his tinctures. Having said that, he’s as fallible as the rest of us.

He believes his tinctures cure "HIV/AIDS," “viruses,” and other fictitious diseases.

He believes olives and avocados are not fit for human consumption.

The list goes on and on. Many of his conclusions are based on false premises. Sorry but, the Great Robert Morse has a lot of learning, unlearning and relearning to do. But I'm not going to hash them here.

It's a pity but the Engineering Disease thread is best left locked for the foreseeable future.

I wish you both good health & happiness, dear HN & patrix. I can only hope that I've been more successful in getting through to other readers. That portions of my posts will help them live longer, happier and healthier lives.
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby ICfreely on Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:47 am

It’s temporary. I’ll get with Simon and see if we can tweak the parameters of this topic (for future guidance) so as to avoid the “round-n-round” propensity that seems to come with it.


Good luck with that one, dear SCS. The irony of all ironies here is that people claiming the desire to pursue this topic scientifically:

1- Have no scientific (biology, chemistry, physiology) credentials to speak of.
2- Blindly latch onto and parrot the words of their preferred professional gurus.
3- Completely dismiss, if not ridicule, the only person with scientific credentials who's sourced more scientific literature than everyone else combined. And, believe you me, I can "speak science" with the best of 'em. Can use scientific verbiage that would make your head spin. But instead I've done my best to simplify complicated subjects using lay terms that anyone can understand (which is no easy task).

What a joke. Good day, I say.

And I have previously (and will continue to) voiced general support for the research and attention paid by Dr. Morse to the lymphatic system.


Be careful there. People who say it's all about the lymph-pH haven't the slightest clue what they're talking about. It's not as simple as "If you eat something acidic, then your body becomes more acidic." Lemons, for instance, have a pH of 2 (very acidic) yet are thought to alkalize. No one knows how exactly it works. Not even the Great Dr. Morse. His repeated mantra of "just move the lymp" to cure everything under the sun is flawed. Ash analysis has no merit. I guess it's hard to point out the weak premises your conclusions are based on when you have something to sell. It's much more profitable to claim you can cure everyone of all diseases (regardless of whether or not they exist in the first place) with your products. Standing atop Mt. Olympus declaring what is and isn't fit for human consumption to all of humanity. Long live the King!


Seeing as the topic is Engineering Disease:

For any given "disease" you'd all be better served questioning the diagnostic methods, treatment and disease itself.

One of the negative "side" effects of practically every treatment for any given "disease" is the disease itself. That, in and of itself, is quite telling.

The only person who gets where I'm coming from is the founder of the thread Sharpstuff (Peter K. Sharpen) who was initially ridiculed and dismissed himself. Nobody thought/thinks to ask how this man has made it to 75 without allopatic medicine or anti-establishment gurus. What can he possibly know about health?

But I'm talking into the wind.
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby patrix on Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:06 am

ICfreely » January 2nd, 2019, 3:59 am wrote:
I don’t believe in good-bad cholesterol, bacteria, fungi, etc. Authority isn’t my truth. Truth is my authority. I try to keep it simple

I came to the conclusion that there’s no such thing as good-bad cholesterol, bacteria, fungi, etc. after years of scientific research and dismantling many false premises and conclusions. But who am I, right? I’m certainly no authority like the Great Thomas Seyfried. No sir. Not me.
For example Thomas Seyfried disproved the gene theory of cancer more than ten years ago with a controlled experiment.

If that’s the case, dear patrix, then why may I ask is he proposing novel cancer therapeutics based on “personalized molecular therapies developed through the genome projects”?

I find your type of arguing interesting. You seem to have researched the matter, but instead of addressing the fact - the controlled experiment, you bring up something that you think discredit Seyfried. I can add that Prof. Seyfried has served in the Vietnam War.

With this kind of "doubt everything" even the existence of fungi(?) I don't find it possible to have a discussion, so I will leave it at that.

Another analogy - It's been "brought to attention" in a YouTube video promoted to criticize Simons Tychos that Tycho Brahe might have never existed, even though there's museums a grave and all his work. There's also a lot of effort put into videos contemplating the very shape of Earth itself...

Edit:
Good luck with that one, dear SCS. The irony of all ironies here is that people claiming the desire to pursue this topic scientifically:
1- Have no scientific (biology, chemistry, physiology) credentials to speak of.

Indeed, how terrible ICFreely. But it turns out that with some effort even a musician can do significant contributions within the field of astronomy. And I must say I am pretty confident regarding my findings within medicine despite my lack of formal credentials and the doubt and uncertainty some wish to spread, instead of promoting a factual discussion.

Edit2: Link to the actual paper regarding Prof. Seyfrieds experiment https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4493566/
If anyone would be interested in looking into it despite ICfreelys "words of caution"

Edit3: Presented in a more palatable format (starts at 3.30): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APwnkpD_BfI

full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APwnkpD_BfI
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby ICfreely on Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:53 pm

With this kind of "doubt everything" even the existence of fungi(?) I don't find it possible to have a discussion, so I will leave it at that.


I never EVER said I doubted the existence of fungi (or bacteria/cholesterol). I took a course in mycology (the study of FUNGI) for Heaven's sake. I doubt that they are the cause of illness. Without them we wouldn't be alive in the first place. I wasted two hours of my time preparing a post answering some of you questions regarding fungi in that thread rationally and factually.

And I must say I am pretty confident regarding my findings within medicine...


As is HN regarding his findings I'm sure. Good luck to you both.

And I must say I am pretty confident that there's no need for me to waste any more time than I already have. Not a single second. I'm getting off this merry-go-round before I :puke:. Like I said before, people will believe what they want to believe.
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby patrix on Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:55 pm

ICfreely » January 2nd, 2019, 2:53 pm wrote:
With this kind of "doubt everything" even the existence of fungi(?) I don't find it possible to have a discussion, so I will leave it at that.


I never EVER said I doubted the existence of fungi (or bacteria/cholesterol). I took a course in mycology (the study of FUNGI) for Heaven's sake. I doubt that they are the cause of illness. Without them we wouldn't be alive in the first place. I wasted two hours of my time preparing a post answering some of you questions regarding fungi in that thread rationally and factually.

And I must say I am pretty confident regarding my findings within medicine...


As is HN regarding his findings I'm sure. Good luck to you both.

And I must say I am pretty confident that there's no need for me to waste any more time than I already have. Not a single second. I'm getting off this merry-go-round before I :puke:. Like I said before, people will believe what they want to believe.



Then I misunderstood what you wrote before
I came to the conclusion that there’s no such thing as good-bad cholesterol, bacteria, fungi, etc. after years of scientific research and dismantling many false premises and conclusions. But who am I, right? I’m certainly no authority like the Great Thomas Seyfried. No sir. Not me.

Which is understandable (at least to me) since "good/bad cholesterol" is a known concept, but I assume your intention was that the good/bad applied to the whole sentence?
Don't bother answering that. I'm done having these meta discussions. I'm sure you'll find others that understand you. I certainly don't.
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby patrix on Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:26 am

Apologies for bringing this up even though it's supposed to be a barred subject. I guess I dislike the idea that we shouldn't be able to discuss all kinds of deceptions here. Anyway I just stumbled onto this while researching Prof. Seyfried and the work of Otto Warburg that he bases some of his research on. Dr Warburg was a Nazi you see. Never mind his research. Discredit by association.
https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skeptic ... -nonsense/
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby ICfreely on Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:33 pm

I agree on Simons decision to close the Engineering disease/nutrition threads. I think that is the best option for now since I see no incentives from the participants in the thread to keep the discussions rational and factual.


Agreed, dear patrix.

And I must say I am pretty confident regarding my findings within medicine despite my lack of formal credentials and the doubt and uncertainty some wish to spread, instead of promoting a factual discussion.



1) The problem, as I see it, is the lack of discussion. When two parties are equally confident in their stance on a given subject they tend to debate rather than discuss. Therein lies the rub.

2) IMO, lacking credentials is actually an advantage when looking into these matters. But relying on the credentials of other people (in lieu of one’s own credentials) is unwise and closes so many fruitful avenues of inquiry.

3) When fruitful avenues of inquiry (which contradict one’s confidence in their own stance) are presented by others they are perceived as the spreading of doubt and uncertainty.


I find your type of arguing interesting. You seem to have researched the matter, but instead of addressing the fact - the controlled experiment, you bring up something that you think discredit Seyfried.



It was never my intention to discredit Seyfried or Morse. I have no reason to believe that either of them are “in on it.” One of my relatives is a world class oncologist with a very lucrative practice in the Midwest serving an international client base. He’s an all around decent human being. A very intelligent man who truly believes he’s helping people with his cut/burn/poison approach. He’s simply “bought into it.”

And yes I have researched the matter. I prefer to approach any given topic from a position of not knowing. I realize you think this sort of “doubt everything” approach is unscientific. I’ll respectfully agree to disagree and leave it at that. I do believe that everyone who contributed to that thread did so with good intentions. It is what it is.


The mods locked the thread in which these subjects were being discussed. Why is it OK for the exact same conversation to continue in this thread?

Shut it down. Enough is enough.



Objection sustained, counselor.

Sidebar:


by fbenario on Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:47 pm

^ Forgive me if I'm asking a stupid question, but didn't the incidences of smallpox and polio start going down drastically and quickly at the same time as the introduction of those two vaccines? What caused such a good result if not the vaccines?



I believe the thread in which these subjects were being discussed provided some rational and factual answers to your questions.
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