THE DERAILING ROOM

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Re: The Holocaust: propaganda, censorship and media fakery

Unread postby ProperGander on Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:19 pm

Holocaust Uncovered (1945) - WARNING: Distressing Images


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tGwjwK9pIM

Mavis Tate
"As a member of the Conservative Party, she was elected Member of Parliament (MP) for Willesden West in 1931. In 1935, however, she moved to the constituency of Frome.
It has been alleged that she was an early member of Archibald Ramsay's Right Club from its founding in May 1939, but this seems unlikely as she was one of those protesting publicly against German persecution of the Jews in November 1938."
"Shortly after the end of World War II, Tate travelled with nine others to visit the Buchenwald concentration camp in Germany to report on the result of the atrocities there. She narrated the newsreel of this visit for British Pathé News"

Archibald Maule Ramsay
"On 10 January 1939 the Hon. Mrs Ismay Ramsay gave another speech to the Arbroath Business Club, at which she claimed the national press was "largely under Jewish control", that "an international group of Jews ... were behind world revolution in every single country" and that Hitler "must ... have had his reasons for what he did". The speech was reported in the local newspaper and attracted the attention of the rabbi of the Edinburgh Hebrew Congregation, Dr Salis Daiches, who wrote to The Scotsman challenging Mrs Ramsay to produce evidence. Ramsay wrote on her behalf citing Father Fahey's booklet, and the resulting correspondence lasted for nearly a month—including a letter from 11 Ministers of the Church of Scotland in the County of Peebles repudiating the views of their MP.

Some members of Ramsay's local Conservative Association in Peebles were not pleased by what they considered negative publicity. However, Ramsay reassured them that he would continue to be a supporter of Neville Chamberlain and the National Government. Ramsay made attempts to make controversial speeches to private meetings rather than in public. On 27 April he spoke to a branch of the (anti-semitic) Nordic League in Kilburn, attacking Neville Chamberlain for introducing conscription "at the instigation of the Jews" and claiming that the Conservative Party "relies on ... Jew money"."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mavis_Tate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archibald_Maule_Ramsay

"In May 1939 Archibald Ramsay founded a secret society called the Right Club. This was an attempt to unify all the different right-wing groups in Britain. Or in the leader's words of "co-ordinating the work of all the patriotic societies". In his autobiography, The Nameless War, Ramsay argued: "The main object of the Right Club was to oppose and expose the activities of Organized Jewry, in the light of the evidence which came into my possession in 1938. Our first objective was to clear the Conservative Party of Jewish influence, and the character of our membership and meetings were strictly in keeping with this objective."

Members of the Right Club included Tate, William Joyce, Anna Wolkoff, Joan Miller, A. K. Chesterton, Francis Yeats-Brown, Lord Redesdale, 5th Duke of Wellington, Duke of Westminster, E. H. Cole, John Stourton, Thomas Hunter, Aubrey Lees, Ernest Bennett, Charles Kerr, Samuel Chapman, John MacKie, James Edmondson, Marquess of Graham, Margaret Bothamley, Earl of Galloway, H. T. Mills, Richard Findlay and Serrocold Skeels.

In 1940 Mavis Tate suffered a nervous breakdown. On her recovery she abandoned her pro-German beliefs and broke away from other members of the Right Club."

http://spartacus-educational.com/SState.htm

"Buchenwald concentration camp (German: Konzentrationslager (KZ) Buchenwald, IPA: [ˈbuːxənvalt]; literally, in English: beech forest) was a German Nazi concentration camp established on the Ettersberg (Etter Mountain) near Weimar, Germany, in July 1937, one of the first and the largest of the concentration camps on German soil, following Dachau's opening just over four years earlier.

Prisoners from all over Europe and the Soviet Union—Jews, Poles and other Slavs, the mentally ill and physically-disabled from birth defects, religious and political prisoners, Roma and Sinti, Freemasons, Jehovah's Witnesses (then called Bible Students), criminals, homosexuals, and prisoners of war—worked primarily as forced labor in local armaments factories. From 1945 to 1950, the camp was used by the Soviet occupation authorities as an internment camp, known as NKVD special camp number 2.

Today the remains of Buchenwald serve as a memorial and permanent exhibition and museum"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchenwal ... ation_camp
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Re: The Holocaust: propaganda, censorship and media fakery

Unread postby pov603 on Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:45 pm

Morbid a subject as it may be [of course presupposing some of it may be true], it would be interesting to know if these sites of mass burial were later exhumed in order to re-inter the bodies in more 'appropriate' conditions.
I wonder what the records show for this?
Of course Orthodox Jews would not be able to distinguish who of the bodies were Jewish in the first place and would probably object to burials without all the body parts being included or bodies being 'laid to rest' in Christian cemeteries.
Regarding the 'ovens', is it safe to assume that is how people are cremated even today?
The number of people 'passing away' was down to 35 according to the Kathy Burke sound-alike, so wouldn't it be safe practice to dispose of possibly contaminated corpses via cremation?
Why would an entity fighting a technological, resource-consuming war and use ovens to dispose of bodies one-by-one when elsewhere in the same camp it is acceptable to dig a big 'bloomin' hole and stick them in it?
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Re: The Holocaust: propaganda, censorship and media fakery

Unread postby ProperGander on Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:50 pm

Very morbid subject.

"How hot does the cremation chamber get?

The cremation chamber will range from 1600 to 1700 degrees Fahrenheit."

"Typically the entire process takes about 5 hours although the actual time for the body to be consumed is approximately 3 hours. Read more..."

http://www.acremation.com/frequently-as ... ions/#long
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Unread postby TheRideNeverEnds on Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:50 pm

It's not my intention to divide people into groups. All I wanted to say in my previous post is that the crimes against humanity caused by organised jewry are only a symptom of this 'us against them' mentality. In your search for truth it is important not to demonize people. You learn much more from looking at the qualities that make these people human, just like you.
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Re: The Holocaust: propaganda, censorship and media fakery

Unread postby Critical Mass on Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:25 am

pov603 wrote:It would be interesting to know if these sites of mass burial were later exhumed in order to re-inter the bodies in more 'appropriate' conditions.

Exhumations? They are forbidden under Jewish law.

Sites of mass burial?

Currently, as of 2015, no sites of mass Holocaust burial have been found. Even a 'true blue' Holocaust believer* will not try to find them.

'Deniers' have done their own investigations... but they, of course, 'don't count'.



* As 'seen on TV'
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Re: The Holocaust: propaganda, censorship and media fakery

Unread postby Critical Mass on Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:02 am

arc300 wrote:"2. Become incredulous and indignant.

"5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule."

"7. Question motives.

"12. Enigmas have no solution.

"18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents.

19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs...."

I'd also, at the very least, add...

4. Use a straw man

For, as far as I can tell, no-one on Earth has claimed this...

Another issue I have is the extent to which "they" could have distorted reality? Were Jews in Nazi germany allowed to live freely, work, own businesses, buy property, etc?
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Re: The Holocaust: propaganda, censorship and media fakery

Unread postby Seneca on Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:17 am

Critical Mass wrote:I'd also, at the very least, add...

4. Use a straw man

For, as far as I can tell, no-one on Earth has claimed this...

Another issue I have is the extent to which "they" could have distorted reality? Were Jews in Nazi germany allowed to live freely, work, own businesses, buy property, etc?

True, but I don't think he was not claiming anybody did. It looked to me he was just speculating about what was the possible extent of the hoax.

Another issue I have is the extent to which "they" could have distorted reality? Were Jews in Nazi germany allowed to live freely, work, own businesses, buy property, etc? Or were they imprisoned, and put in camps, without having committed any crime other than being Jewish? .

Assuming that they (Jews ) were persecuted, and imprisoned, but there were no mass executions...
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Re: The Holocaust: propaganda, censorship and media fakery

Unread postby Seneca on Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:32 am

This quote from Steve looks imho more like a straw man:

omaxsteve wrote:Exactly what advantage is gained by the average good and law abiding Jewish citizen of today from holocaust denial being criminalized?


To answer your questions, Steve:
Assuming that they (Jews ) were persecuted, and imprisoned, but there were no mass executions, would that be considered a crime? If they were just rounded up, tattooed, put on boats and expelled from Germany would that have been acceptable?

Would it be any more, or less, acceptable if a country committed that type of atrocity to any ethnic group?

1)Yes 2)No 3) No

I hope you can see that these kind of questions are very insulting for this forum. I also hope you are not being ironic here, Because I really feel concern toward these babies and other children who are potentially traumatized.
In the Jewish conspiracy thread, it seemed like many here were concerned for the poor babies psychological health after the trauma of circumcision.
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Re: The Holocaust: propaganda, censorship and media fakery

Unread postby ICfreely on Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:04 am

Abe Foxman and (Armenian) Holocaust Denial

I don’t see how anyone can take shysters like Abe Foxman & Jesse Jackson seriously.

Abe Foxman’s Genocide Denial Road Show
by JOHN WALSH
August 22, 2007
It seemed innocuous enough at first. Watertown, a suburb of Boston, sported a sign on the Town Hall, proclaiming the town a participant in an anti-bigotry program "No Place for Hate." But one of the good citizens of Watertown with libertarian inclinations objected that the sign seemed like some kind of PC thought control. His objections set in motion investigations by the town mothers and fathers into the program. Lo and behold, it was sponsored by Abe Foman’s Jewish Anti-Defamation League (ADL).

In itself this sponsorship might not be a problem, unless you are a Muslim, an Arab or a Palestinian and know full well the ADL’s positions on bigotry. But there are over 8000 Armenian-Americans in Watertown, and the ADL has long denied that the Turkish massacre of 1.5 million Armenians from 1915 to 1923 amounted to genocide. Turkey is of course an ally and arms purchaser of Israel’s, but the denial antedates this alliance. A good friend of mine, an Israeli expatriate, tells me that when he went to school in Israel, mention of the Armenian genocide was verboten so as not to detract from the "uniqueness" of the Jewish genocide under the Nazis and to maintain a "monopoly on suffering," as he puts it. Shoah business does not like the competition.

The whole matter in Watertown was given added urgency by a resolution now pending in Congress calling on Turkey to recognize the Armenian genocide. This resolution is supported by the Armenian community and opposed by the national ADL.

Anger began to mount in Watertown and the citizens called on the city mothers and fathers to withdraw from the ADL-sponsored program. (ADL Dollars and awards flow to participating towns.) The Watertown Town Council called a meeting which was packed with a lot of angry Armenians. Regional ADL director Andrew Tarsey came to the meeting to defend the ADL genocide denial, (as had the ADL’s national director, Abe Foxman, in an interview with the Boston Globe,) and to call on the town to stick with the "No Place for Hate" program. Tarsey was booed out of the hall with hisses and catcalls. At that the town mothers and fathers voted unanimously to quit the program, and at the cost of overtime for two city workers the sign was gone before dawn.

Tarsey was unable to prevail with his genocide denial and couldn’t move Foxman and the national ADL to reverse course. Tarsey then reversed his position and agreed that Armenians had indeed endured a genocide.They then cut through the Gordian Knot by firing Tarsey. Two local ADL board members duly resigned in protest. The rest stood by their man, Foxman.
Tarsey is now hailed repeatedly as a "hero" by local Jewish leaders. If armies were composed of such heroes, every battle would culminate in mutual mass retreat. Notably and unusually, the city of Watertown and its council were not labeled anti-semitic by the ADL and its assorted acolytes. Even Alan Dershowitz did not raise a peep. This seems to be a kind of sea change, and it may have something to do with the Lobby’s weaker position now that it is more widely seen. post Mearsheimer and Walt, as a principal instigator of the disastrous war on Iraq.

At this point the Boston Jewish community was divided. Foxman was under pressure, and Armenian-Americans from across the country were getting involved. How to respond? With a big expensive newspaper ad of course. And how did Foxman’s ad make his case? By blaming it on the Jews! Specificially the Jews of Turkey whom Foxman and company claim would be endangered by a change in the ADL position. But there have been many reports of the tolerance shown to Jews in Turkey, as one letter writer to the Boston Globe noted. The Foxman ad also let the Israeli cat out of the bag, saying, "We are also aware that Turkey is a key strategic ally and friend of the United States and a staunch friend of Israel." (Some staunch friend if it were true that Turkey was persecuting Turkish Jews. What a tangled web has been woven by ADL.) But of course the ADL was only stating its long-time position that Israel comes first ¬ way before any consideration of human rights.

Two days ago, the Jewish Community Relations Council of Greater Boston (JCRC) known for its pro-Iraq war stance, its Iran bashing and its opposition to Palestinian rights joined the fray. It sent out a letter repudiating Foxmam’s genocide denial ¬ and claiming it recognized the Armenian genocide long long ago ¬ in fact in 2005, although this received scant notice until now. Let’s see; the genocide happened in 1915 and the JCRC recognized it in 2005 ¬ after the passage of 90 years. By that logic Holocaust denial should be OK for another 13 years.

Today Foxman and his national ADL, hastily joining the local ADL in full retreat, have pronounced the Armenian slaughter is a genocide after all. Upon reflection and with the help of that great humanitarian, Elie Wiesel, who seems to be acting as a kind of Jewish Billy Graham and who has never acknowledged the injustice done the Palestinians, Foxman thinks that it was a genocide after all. (Of course according to their newspaper ad of several days back this means that the national ADL is now abandoning Turkish Jewry to a horrible fate.) ADL was in fact founded in 1913 just before the onset of the Armenian genocide, so ADL’s acknowledgement is not overly hasty. Perhaps the ADL’s new slogan could be "Building on 100 years of Genocide Denial."

http://www.counterpunch.org/2007/08/22/abe-foxman-s-genocide-denial-road-show/
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Unread postby jumpy64 on Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:20 am

TheRideNeverEnds wrote:It's not my intention to divide people into groups. All I wanted to say in my previous post is that the crimes against humanity caused by organised jewry are only a symptom of this 'us against them' mentality. In your search for truth it is important not to demonize people. You learn much more from looking at the qualities that make these people human, just like you.


You're right, TheRideNeverEnds, we're all human beings with great qualities and potentials.

In fact, I'm not "demonizing" other fellow human beings here, I'm just trying to expose a potentially very dangerous conditioning that may make a group of people like us discriminate against others and want to "divide and conquer" them. Don't you think that may be useful too, and even essential to what we're trying to do in this forum?

Anyway, in a future post on Jewish education, I'll talk about the change I've noticed in people before the conditioning and after it. It may be interesting.

Maybe a particular "ride" can end at a certain point, if we become aware of its features, and a new, better one may begin.
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Unread postby jumpy64 on Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:38 am

ICfreely wrote:TpTB couldn’t care less about ordinary Jews at the base of the pyramid. They’re more than willing to sacrifice them.


I think what you say is true and not true at the same time. I mean, does a general who sends his soldiers to die in a war care about them? In a way no, because he's willing to sacrifice them, as you say. But he also needs them to fight and possibly win the war, or to maintain the status quo, so in this sense he does care for them, because he certainly prefers them to outlive his enemy's soldiers.

This I think can be a metaphor for our "perps". Since they're the (very) few against the (very) many, first they need to stick together, and then they need an army of "chosen guards" willing to fight and die for them, as in any dictatorship or oligopoly (even in those masked as "democracies"). And of course they need to keep those guards faithful and motivated.

And if, even with their army of "chosen guards", they're still a very small minority, more than fighting directly they have to use other "military tactics". The most effective when the enemy greatly outnumbers your ranks is to fight "by way of deception", to "divide and conquer" your adversaries, and maybe even make them fight your wars for you.

So I think there must be a strong "cohesive factor" between the perps, and also between them and their "chosen guards". That's why I think we should ask ourselves: what could bind the perps together?

Can it be just psychopathy, which is technically a mental illness? I really don't think so, because otherwise nuthouses could unite and conquer the world... Mental illness makes people undependable by definition. Would you trust a crazy person? I don't think so.

What if we add greed to the mix? Well, I think it would be still far from enough, because greed is what motivates most people in today's world, and makes them unfaithful to each other, while here we need a minority of people sharing a strong form of allegiance.

So what about a group of people who are brainwashed since a very early age in order to believe they are special, different from other human beings and superior to them? That would be a strong cohesive factor, don't you think? Also because brainwashing since an early age can kill dissent: it's very difficult to go against what you've been strongly programmed to believe (even through early traumas) when you were too young for critical thinking.

A few people inside this strongly cohesive group would become powerful leaders, while most of them would stay among the troops, even to be used as "cannon fodder". But even the most unsuccessful and unlucky among them could feel "elevated" by their knowledge of a strong bond, a common identity with those in power. All the more so if they perceive themselves and their group as a small minority living among a vast majority of mostly unsuspecting "enemies". They would always have them to feel superior to.

Doesn't this sound as a possible scenario? I'm open to different interpretations, of course, but one thing I think we must do, i.e. start thinking what could motivate the perps to stick together. Because any military tactics, and even sheer common sense, say that a small group of people can't dominate a vast majority if its members are not united by a strong common bond.

Let's try and find what this bond could be, shall we?
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Re: The Holocaust: propaganda, censorship and media fakery

Unread postby arc300 on Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:06 am

Seneca and CM you both make interesting points and, at the risk of being seen to be harping on, I'd like to address one of the most subtly cunning and under-handed statements made by Omaxsteve. It is one that you both picked up on, and which CM rightly refers to as a strawman argument, that is, a fallacious argument attributed to your opponent that can easily be knocked down:

"Another issue I have is the extent to which "they" could have distorted reality? Were Jews in Nazi germany allowed to live freely, work, own businesses, buy property, etc?"

In particular the first sentence:

"Another issue I have is the extent to which "they" could have distorted reality?"



Any reasonable person knows that reality CAN NOT be distorted, altered or changed, no matter how much we might wish to be able to do so. Reality just IS. I know I, myself, have wished I could "turn back the clock" and change reality and undo words I've said or deeds I've done but, because I am not insane, I know that it cannot be done. One plus one equals two and aluminium cannot cut through steel. Try distorting these realities and see how far you get.

Omaxsteve wins his argument because nobody can distort reality to ANY extent, and to claim otherwise would be to attribute magical powers to the perpetrators of the hoax, which means that anyone who dares to question him is insane.

However, as this forum, chock full of proven incidents of media fakery proves, hoaxters do not need to "distort reality". They only need to distort or manipulate peoples' PERCEPTIONS of reality. And that, obviously, is rather easily done. Did the 9/11 perps need to alter reality enough to make it possible for aluminium to cut through steel, or did they only need to make the pliable masses BELIEVE that it can be done?

Reality is there to be perceived if you want to perceive it. We need not concern ourselves with any sick individuals who might feign offence at our perception of it. We need not study some convoluted, arcane knowledge or kow-tow to those who call us names. If we want to find the truth about our immutable reality all we need is honest curiosity and the ability to cut through the bullshit as much as we can.

One might say that his statement (or entire post) was just an example of clumsy wording or under-developed critical thinking skills. If that post had been made by a new member, with his head spinning from shock at the realisation of how entrenched this media/societal manipulation is, I'd probably be more sympathetic. But a 5-year member of this forum should know better.

Curiosity may have killed the cat, but at least the cat died curious. I admire the cat. I have spent my whole life being made to feel abnormal or 'out there' just because I'm curious. I have lost more friends than I can remember because I constantly change my mind about things as I process new evidence and I can't be relied upon to follow the party line. But I (and surely many others) can't imagine living or dying any other way. Omaxsteves' post, well-meaning or not, was an attempt to place limitations on the curiosity of anybody reading this thread and, because he did it in this sanctuary for the truly curious... well, let's just say it really gripped my shit.
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Unread postby Seneca on Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:01 pm

jumpy64 wrote:
ICfreely wrote:TpTB couldn’t care less about ordinary Jews at the base of the pyramid. They’re more than willing to sacrifice them.


I think what you say is true and not true at the same time. I mean, does a general who sends his soldiers to die in a war care about them? In a way no, because he's willing to sacrifice them, as you say. But he also needs them to fight and possibly win the war, or to maintain the status quo, so in this sense he does care for them, because he certainly prefers them to outlive his enemy's soldiers.

This I think can be a metaphor for our "perps". Since they're the (very) few against the (very) many, first they need to stick together, and then they need an army of "chosen guards" willing to fight and die for them, as in any dictatorship or oligopoly (even in those masked as "democracies"). And of course they need to keep those guards faithful and motivated.

And if, even with their army of "chosen guards", they're still a very small minority, more than fighting directly they have to use other "military tactics". The most effective when the enemy greatly outnumbers your ranks is to fight "by way of deception", to "divide and conquer" your adversaries, and maybe even make them fight your wars for you.

So I think there must be a strong "cohesive factor" between the perps, and also between them and their "chosen guards". That's why I think we should ask ourselves: what could bind the perps together?

Can it be just psychopathy, which is technically a mental illness? I really don't think so, because otherwise nuthouses could unite and conquer the world... Mental illness makes people undependable by definition. Would you trust a crazy person? I don't think so.

What if we add greed to the mix? Well, I think it would be still far from enough, because greed is what motivates most people in today's world, and makes them unfaithful to each other, while here we need a minority of people sharing a strong form of allegiance.

So what about a group of people who are brainwashed since a very early age in order to believe they are special, different from other human beings and superior to them? That would be a strong cohesive factor, don't you think? Also because brainwashing since an early age can kill dissent: it's very difficult to go against what you've been strongly programmed to believe (even through early traumas) when you were too young for critical thinking.

A few people inside this strongly cohesive group would become powerful leaders, while most of them would stay among the troops, even to be used as "cannon fodder". But even the most unsuccessful and unlucky among them could feel "elevated" by their knowledge of a strong bond, a common identity with those in power. All the more so if they perceive themselves and their group as a small minority living among a vast majority of mostly unsuspecting "enemies". They would always have them to feel superior to.

Doesn't this sound as a possible scenario? I'm open to different interpretations, of course, but one thing I think we must do, i.e. start thinking what could motivate the perps to stick together. Because any military tactics, and even sheer common sense, say that a small group of people can't dominate a vast majority if its members are not united by a strong common bond.

Let's try and find what this bond could be, shall we?

I think your analogy for the perps makes sense, it is a genuine possibility. As for your analogy of the "chosen guards" maybe you should do some more thinking because this could be misunderstood. Being a guard, fighting in a war is an activity you do conciously and for it to be effective you have to agree with the objective.
I don't think you mean all the jews are doing this. I would think there are many who just do their job, pay taxes, without realizing they are helping the perps.
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Unread postby ICfreely on Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:20 pm

jumpy64 wrote:Let's try and find what this bond could be, shall we?


Maybe fear? It's a prime motivator. The glue that binds/cloud that blinds...
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Unread postby ICfreely on Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:40 pm

apex - 'in on it'
middle - 'on a need to know'
base - 'bought into it'

In any power structure, the majority at the base cannot be 'in on it,' no matter how much they'd like to think they are.
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