Is MUSIC used as a propaganda/mind-control tool?

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Is MUSIC used as a propaganda/mind-control tool?

Unread postby fbenario on Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:03 am

kansasinnovember wrote:i can say Manchester is a great city with its history of music and football.

Excellent point.

June 4, 1976, Sex Pistols played Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall. This was long before the Pistols became a cause celebre, became notorious, became well-known. There were only about 35 people watching the show. Tiny crowd seeing an unknown band. Who cares.

We all care! This was the most influential concert ever played, one of the most important moments in the history of music. Included in that small audience were:

1-Stephen Morrissey, who began The Smiths,
2-Peter Hook and Bernard Sumner, who went out the next day and bought guitars, soon giving birth to Warsaw, which quickly became Joy Division, and then later New Order,
3-Howard Devoto and Pete Shelley, who had just decided to form The Buzzcocks,
4-Mark E. Smith, who began The Fall,
5-Tony Wilson, who began Factory Records,
6-Mick Hucknall, who began Simply Red,
7-Andy Bell, who began Erasure,
8-Vic Godard, who began Subway Sect, and
9-Martin Hannett, who produced Joy Division.


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93XIO_fpMVU
full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH4ixA9Wl0Y


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMZ3E6rWNd4
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby kansasinnovember on Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:00 am

fbenario wrote:
kansasinnovember wrote:i can say Manchester is a great city with its history of music and football.

Excellent point.

June 4, 1976, Sex Pistols played Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall. This was long before the Pistols became a cause celebre, became notorious, became well-known. There were only about 35 people watching the show. Tiny crowd seeing an unknown band. Who cares.

We all care! This was the most influential concert ever played, one of the most important moments in the history of music. Included in that small audience were:

1-Stephen Morrissey, who began The Smiths,
2-Peter Hook and Bernard Sumner, who went out the next day and bought guitars, soon giving birth to Warsaw, which quickly became Joy Division, and then later New Order,
3-Howard Devoto and Pete Shelley, who had just decided to form The Buzzcocks,
4-Mark E. Smith, who began The Fall,
5-Tony Wilson, who began Factory Records,
6-Mick Hucknall, who began Simply Red,
7-Andy Bell, who began Erasure,
8-Vic Godard, who began Subway Sect, and
9-Martin Hannett, who produced Joy Division.


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93XIO_fpMVU
full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH4ixA9Wl0Y


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMZ3E6rWNd4

Cheers fbenario,You clearly know your stuff....it's amazing over the years how many people i've met who claimed to be at that Sex Pistols gig,it's one of those iconic moments in time where anyone and everyone wants to take credit for witnessing something they really didn't see,reminds me of another event that took place in the big apple on 9/11.
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby reel.deal on Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:52 am

I swear that I was there

full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW3wBL757Jc
:P
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby pov603 on Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:10 pm

At 5:07 when explaining about Malcolm Mclaren's shop 'SEX' on the Kings Road, it just happens to show a Route-master bus going past.
Of course, #11...
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby hoi.polloi on Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:52 pm

"The major problems in the world are the result of the difference between how nature works and the way people think."


-Gregory Bateson
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby burningame on Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:41 am

fbenario wrote:...June 4, 1976, Sex Pistols played Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall. ...This was the most influential concert ever played, one of the most important moments in the history of music...


Really?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby fbenario on Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:29 am

burningame wrote:
fbenario wrote:...June 4, 1976, Sex Pistols played Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall. ...This was the most influential concert ever played, one of the most important moments in the history of music...


Really?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh, I'll gladly put the combined output of The Smiths, Morrissey, Joy Division, New Order, The Buzzcocks, and The Fall against the output/results of any other moment in the history of music - and I doubt I'm alone in that conclusion! It's fairly obvious, if you think about it, that no other concert could possibly have inspired so many great bands and songs.


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK_YXVTULLE


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56dxJjXbnjg
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby antipodean on Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:13 am

We all care! This was the most influential concert ever played, one of the most important moments in the history of music. Included in that small audience were:

1-Stephen Morrissey, who began The Smiths,
2-Peter Hook and Bernard Sumner, who went out the next day and bought guitars, soon giving birth to Warsaw, which quickly became Joy Division, and then later New Order,
3-Howard Devoto and Pete Shelley, who had just decided to form The Buzzcocks,
4-Mark E. Smith, who began The Fall,
5-Tony Wilson, who began Factory Records,
6-Mick Hucknall, who began Simply Red,
7-Andy Bell, who began Erasure,
8-Vic Godard, who began Subway Sect, and
9-Martin Hannett, who produced Joy Division.

Bernard Sumner any relation to Gordon aka Stink (Sting).

Sumner has used the surnames Dicken and Albrecht in the past and had always refused to explain why he has used different names. He has also been reluctant to discuss his family background, although he was born Jewish. In 2007, it was revealed his mother had cerebral palsy, and that he had been adopted by his stepfather John Dickin. Sumner was his mother's maiden name, and is the name that appears on his birth certificate. The revelations about his past were made in a book about his life, Bernard Sumner: Confusion: Joy Division, Electronic and New Order Versus the World by David Nolan, published in 2008 – on which Sumner co-operated

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Sumner
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby burningame on Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:27 am

fbenario wrote:
Oh, I'll gladly put the combined output of The Smiths, Morrissey, Joy Division, New Order, The Buzzcocks, and The Fall against the output/results of any other moment in the history of music - and I doubt I'm alone in that conclusion! It's fairly obvious, if you think about it, that no other concert could possibly have inspired so many great bands and songs.


fbenario - I have no doubts at all that you're not alone in this thinking. And that's what really worries me.

The fact that a greater number of people believe in something - especially in this day and age - doesn’t necessarily make it right. Hell - that’s why we’re all here, as I’m sure you’d agree.

As someone who recommends so highly Dave McGowan's "Laurel Canyon" research, have you ever stopped to consider the possibility that the whole of popular music since the ‘40s or ‘50s may have been 'contaminated' (or ‘tainted’ to use HerrDerElf’s favourite phrase) by the very people who brought you 911? If that research – and the general bulk of evidence on this forum - has any credibility, then aren’t we entitled to draw conclusions about the state of popular music generally?

Shouldn’t we should consider the ramifications: the truly horrible notion that our very emotional sustenance, in the form of popular music, has been tampered with over the years? If the perps have taken us for a ride with fundamental pillars of the human story like the Apollo Moon landings, the atomic bomb, the serial killings, etc, then wouldn’t the promotion of some musical artists, indeed some musical forms, to the detriment of others, be a relatively simple thing to bring off?

It seems to me a logical part of their 'plan' - if indeed one exists – would involve manipulation of the people through music/emotion, as well as through visual programming (TV/Hollywood); their goal being to keep the bulk of the population ignorant of the breadth of human possibilites. Now, we can coldly dissect videos and images of 911 here on this forum, but still the spectre of the perps’ total control of our music world (or is it theirs?) still holds us in a trance which nevertheless manages to be ever-present, even here.

I believe ‘they’ have played the population, at least the music-consuming market, like a consummate organist, pushing in and pulling out the various stops: fluffing up this new star, extinguishing the older one, generally controlling and manipulating the musical scene like there's no tomorrow. I would say, to the extent of purposely sabotaging some art forms, via academic and media tweaking. Why? Well, of course, there's a hell of a lot of money to be made, and if you keep the bar set low, it’s easy to get replacements...good-looking or charismatic people don’t have to sit in a room by themselves for long periods of time to learn their craft. But more than that, they want to get inside our heads, literally humming a tune; the most basic way is through music.

Well, I think they have gone further, by changing the very nature of music – now always linked with the inevitable matching video and 'meaningful' but, if you're honest, ambiguous lyrics – just as they’ve changed the very nature of ‘art’ into something more akin to a simplistic ‘concept’ or ‘message’, a one-sentence grab, that is evidenced by something like the winner of the 2001(!) Turner Prize (worth ₤20,000!!) – “Work No.227: The lights going on and off”, Martin Creed:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/1698032.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/1701400.stm

What do you think?
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby kansasinnovember on Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:36 pm

Oh, I'll gladly put the combined output of The Smiths, Morrissey, Joy Division, New Order, The Buzzcocks, and The Fall against the output/results of any other moment in the history of music - and I doubt I'm alone in that conclusion! It's fairly obvious, if you think about it, that no other concert could possibly have inspired so many great bands and songs.

...And let's not forget about the knock on effects of bands that were then inspired by the likes of The Smiths & Joy Division.
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby antipodean on Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:31 pm

burningame wrote:
fbenario wrote:
Oh, I'll gladly put the combined output of The Smiths, Morrissey, Joy Division, New Order, The Buzzcocks, and The Fall against the output/results of any other moment in the history of music - and I doubt I'm alone in that conclusion! It's fairly obvious, if you think about it, that no other concert could possibly have inspired so many great bands and songs.


fbenario - I have no doubts at all that you're not alone in this thinking. And that's what really worries me.

The fact that a greater number of people believe in something - especially in this day and age - doesn’t necessarily make it right. Hell - that’s why we’re all here, as I’m sure you’d agree.

As someone who recommends so highly Dave McGowan's "Laurel Canyon" research, have you ever stopped to consider the possibility that the whole of popular music since the ‘40s or ‘50s may have been 'contaminated' (or ‘tainted’ to use HerrDerElf’s favourite phrase) by the very people who brought you 911? If that research – and the general bulk of evidence on this forum - has any credibility, then aren’t we entitled to draw conclusions about the state of popular music generally?

Shouldn’t we should consider the ramifications: the truly horrible notion that our very emotional sustenance, in the form of popular music, has been tampered with over the years? If the perps have taken us for a ride with fundamental pillars of the human story like the Apollo Moon landings, the atomic bomb, the serial killings, etc, then wouldn’t the promotion of some musical artists, indeed some musical forms, to the detriment of others, be a relatively simple thing to bring off?

It seems to me a logical part of their 'plan' - if indeed one exists – would involve manipulation of the people through music/emotion, as well as through visual programming (TV/Hollywood); their goal being to keep the bulk of the population ignorant of the breadth of human possibilites. Now, we can coldly dissect videos and images of 911 here on this forum, but still the spectre of the perps’ total control of our music world (or is it theirs?) still holds us in a trance which nevertheless manages to be ever-present, even here.

I believe ‘they’ have played the population, at least the music-consuming market, like a consummate organist, pushing in and pulling out the various stops: fluffing up this new star, extinguishing the older one, generally controlling and manipulating the musical scene like there's no tomorrow. I would say, to the extent of purposely sabotaging some art forms, via academic and media tweaking. Why? Well, of course, there's a hell of a lot of money to be made, and if you keep the bar set low, it’s easy to get replacements...good-looking or charismatic people don’t have to sit in a room by themselves for long periods of time to learn their craft. But more than that, they want to get inside our heads, literally humming a tune; the most basic way is through music.

Well, I think they have gone further, by changing the very nature of music – now always linked with the inevitable matching video and 'meaningful' but, if you're honest, ambiguous lyrics – just as they’ve changed the very nature of ‘art’ into something more akin to a simplistic ‘concept’ or ‘message’, a one-sentence grab, that is evidenced by something like the winner of the 2001(!) Turner Prize (worth ₤20,000!!) – “Work No.227: The lights going on and off”, Martin Creed:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/1698032.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/1701400.stm

What do you think?


Great post Burningame, who's to say that the whole punk, new wave (Manchester scene) movement wasn't also by design.
The Sex Pistols them selves were by design, Malcolm McClaren's brain child an expert manipulator himself.

Somebody on here made a pertinant point about Dave McGowan's Laurel Canyon analogy, in that most of the L/C era musicians came from middle class backgrounds born during the WW2 years, & given the times, were more than likely to have had parents who at the time pursued military related careers.

Oh, I'll gladly put the combined output of The Smiths, Morrissey, Joy Division, New Order, The Buzzcocks, and The Fall against the output/results of any other moment in the history of music

Personally I think that lot have a lot to answer for. Most of their lyrics revolve around how shit life is, well ! no one's forcing them to live in Manchester.
If it wasn't for them we wouldn't have endured fake Bohemian movements such as the 'Goth' and it's off spring the 'Emo'.

Jim Morrison's (The Doors) Dad may have been involved with the Gulf of Tonkin incident, but I know who's music I prefer. But that's just me being subjective

Also the best band IMHO, often described by critics as emerging from the New Wave scene, had already released their first 2 superb albums before that 'watershed' Sex Pistols concert.


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvRco8RT7kU
Edit : just noticed an impromptu lyric at 3min & 30sec. "Well the BBC don't understand who wasted all you fools"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqcPKX00 ... re=related
Last edited by antipodean on Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby fbenario on Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:42 am

burningame wrote:Shouldn’t we should consider the ramifications: the truly horrible notion that our very emotional sustenance, in the form of popular music, has been tampered with over the years?

Burningame, your whole post is excellent in every way, and the vast majority of it is obviously relevant and inarguable.

And yet. Music has enhanced my life in every conceivable way, while at no time making me more gullible or bloodthirsty, or making me more likely to take ANY established, mainstream, 'approved' view of anything at all. Music has pushed me to think for myself.

The sheer joy and wonder I feel when listening to Closer by Joy Division, or Entertainment by Gang Of Four, or any number of songs by The Jam/Clash/R.E.M./Neil Young/Bauhaus/VelvetUnderground/TheBand/Bowie/J.Lennon/TheWho/AliceInChains/RedHotChiliPeppers, and on and on, can't possibly be a malignant manipulation of me by TPTB. Where are the negative effects on me?


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhSf262BgOk


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwzaifhSw2c


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alsUu-MGE9g

If you're interested, here is the link to my annual music list.

http://fbenario.wordpress.com/
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby simonshack on Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:40 pm

Since the "Chatbox" is currently in a musical mood, I have made a post with links to some of my own stuff.
http://www.cluesforum.info/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p2366423

On the subject of the issues debated here (concerning the dark sides of "rock music"), I'd say that fbenario's views on this are closest to mine. I have never really felt 'mentally manipulated' by the vast amounts of bands I have listened to - and thoroughly enjoyed - in my lifetime. At the most - when some people have asked me why I write and sing English lyrics - I've been wondering why, in fact, this is the case. Yet, I just don't feel comfortable writing/singing, for instance, in Norwegian, French or Italian. This is probably some form of conditioning I have been through - but I'm not overly worried about that... One Icelandic band that I love (and have met with a few times), is Sigur Ròs - have brilliantly transcended that 'problem', by inventing their very own fantasy idiom which they call "Hopelandic"(or "Vonlenska").

Anyway, I do hope that the mood/sound and lyrics of The Social Service do not suggest any 'social manipulation' in any way! If any listener should feel/interpret anything of the sort, please rest assured that it is entirely unintentional! :)
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby fbenario on Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:31 am

simonshack wrote:One Icelandic band that I love (and have met with a few times), is Sigur Ròs - have brilliantly transcended that 'problem', by inventing their very own fantasy idiom which they call "Hopelandic"(or "Vonlenska").

What a great band. One of the few that is essentially nonpareil (unique and unlike anything else; peerless).

At a wedding I went to 6 months ago, when my favorite couple/trusted confidants married, she chose this song to accompany her walk down the aisle, instead of any normal, traditional Bridal March music. A stunning moment that raised goosebumps.


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0LOIgmIb80
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Re: THE "CHATBOX"

Unread postby hoi.polloi on Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:06 am

Makes sense, thanks for the ramble.
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