Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior — hoax, set-up or RIP?

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Seneca
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Re: Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior — hoax, set-up or RIP?

Unread post by Seneca » Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:26 pm

arc300 wrote:The sunken boat was real, and the photos of the sunken boat were real,
Which of the photos I posted are real and how do you conclude that?

hoi.polloi
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Re: Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior — hoax, set-up or RIP?

Unread post by hoi.polloi » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:43 pm

This is a great topic because we have at least two members with personal experience in the matter.

Let's use this as a platform for helping us constructively solve the mystery of where the threshold of the simulation is. Where does the fakery begin? What could be the motive for faking some pictures, even while they may have had a real wreck? Let's try to learn from this one.

Seneca
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Re: Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior — hoax, set-up or RIP?

Unread post by Seneca » Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:41 pm

"The organization used the money paid in compensation to launch the new Rainbow Warrior, a flagship larger, better equipped, and because of the French action, recognized worldwide. What happened in Auckland made Greenpeace a multinational in its own right."

from http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... tivists.g2

I definitely don't think all Greenpeace activists were liars. They were my heroes when I was a teenager and I am shocked to realize that they played such an important role in the nuke hoax and other hoaxes.
Maybe the leaders used the $8.1 million compensation, and revenue from new memberships, to professionalize the organization so they could keep the honest idealists in line?
Since they didn't accept donations from corporations or governments (unlike other "NGO's") this was a clever solution.

I've added some more Rainbow Warrior pictures,[st]however I can't find any from before the event. Please help me out here.[/st]

ADMIN: Seneca, I must caution you regarding this ugly format and your misspellings.
OK Sorry. I corrected my misspelling of hoax and fixed the link.
Last edited by Seneca on Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:28 am, edited 4 times in total.

hoi.polloi
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Re: Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior — hoax, set-up or RIP?

Unread post by hoi.polloi » Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:21 pm

It is hard to get any organization going without creating the "money hole" scenario. Investors (the real power within our governments these days) must see an attractive reason to spend money, in order to attract more investors and more money. So some compromise, unless your group is well aligned with the goals of the State, must take place from the outset. I am sure what Ted Turner was thinking when he made his ecological cartoons of the 1980's and invested in Greenpeace had little to do with the philosophy of Natural Capitalism.

But anyway, I agree that many within Greenpeace could have been honestly duped. It's assumed by many of the "conspiracy crowd" that a lot of these eco-groups are only allowed autonomy as long as they play by the script and take the money/threats seriously when they are asked to perform. The ones that don't are infiltrated and seemingly patiently "steered" away from sovereign decisions. Or else they may be kept in check and prevented from networking with like minded groups by their own strictness (a philosophical "problem" we are presented with as critical thinkers publishing to this vast and wild DARPA experiment) or by active intervention.

So, what kind of photographs need to be faked in this scenario? Greenpeace is already over-controlled. Perhaps, though, it was a fake scenario and publicized tragedy that allowed the perps to "cash out" of a dangerous situation. They didn't want to support the eco-group any longer so they chose to give it martyrdom and take the minimal heat rather than empowering Greenpeace over the long term.

BTW, I'm not trying to be picky, but I agree with Admin (Simon? brianv? I've added the word "ADMIN" to your caution so that readers can distinguish from Seneca's post) that you should know how to spell "hoax" by now, Seneca. Please at least try to run a simple spell check when composing your posts.

arc300
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Re: Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior — hoax, set-up or RIP?

Unread post by arc300 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:54 pm

Seneca wrote:
arc300 wrote:The sunken boat was real, and the photos of the sunken boat were real,
Which of the photos I posted are real and how do you conclude that?
Let me be more precise: I said the photos WERE real, meaning that, in the pre-digital age, those real photos depicted a real ship half submerged in a real place, easily observable from the road, and actually seen by thousands of Aucklanders, including myself. I myself took some real photos from the road, which, I'm afraid, have been lost to the sands of time. Those photos matched the photos in the papers and the photos that other people took. Of course, any images showing the interior or underwater parts of the ship not verifiable by the general public were possibly "not real", and as any member on this forum would probably agree, the official story surrounding any so-called terrorist attack is almost certainly not real to some degree.

In short, the sunken ship real in the same way that the destroyed WTC buildings were real.

Seneca
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Re: Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior — hoax, set-up or RIP?

Unread post by Seneca » Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:31 pm

Thanks for the clarification, arc300

To answer Hoi's question:
Based on the comparison of the photographs, I think at least the pictures of the salvage operation and the salvaged ship were faked.
The motivation: To pretend it was really salvaged because this was the most expensive part of the operation (beside losing the ship).
And/or because what it would show was not consistent with the story of the bombing told by Greenpeace.
(see http://web.archive.org/web/201203102146 ... kbomb.html)

However I am not sure that without salvaging the ship it could have been towed to the location where it was sunk.

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Re: Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior — hoax, set-up or RIP?

Unread post by antipodean » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:03 am

Seneca wrote:
antipod wrote:I've just read another article which says that quite a few of the crew were on board at the time.

Should really research a topic properly before jumping in. At this point I'll conclude that the event happened, although I must say a lot of the information appears to be a bit sketchy.
It would be helpful if you could provide a link to this article.
It’s close to midnight. The captain, Pete Willcox, and many other crew members are already asleep. A few others, including the photographer Fernando Pereira, are still chatting around the mess-room table, sharing between them the last two bottles of beer.
http://www.greenpeace.org/international ... inbow-war/

This piece here is interesting, given that the bombs went off at 11.38pm & 11.45pm
Soon after 11pm, the meeting broke up. Accompanied by some of the crew, the Warrior's visitors left. Some of those still on board, - including captain Pete Willcox, radio operator Lloyd Anderson, Margaret Mills and engineer Hanne Sorenson - wished their friends good night and went below to their cabins. On a whim that may even have saved her life, Hanne went back above deck and decided to take a brisk walk in the night air. Seven others, including photographer Fernando Pereira, remained chatting around the mess-room table, sharing between them the last two bottles of beer. Checking to see whether the bars would still be open, they noticed the clock read ten to midnight. Then the lights went out
http://www.greenpeace.org/international ... r/rainbow/

This article below (OK it's from the Philippines) lists 2 casualties Pereira and Hanne Sorenson a 'new recruit', and the date as being June 29.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2 ... 7,21775374

Here the First Mate Martin Gotje is said to have been married to Susi Newborn a co founder of Greenpeace UK.
Cut to 1985. Susi was married to Martini Gotje, first mate on the Rainbow Warrior which was making her first voyage to New Zealand before heading to Moruroa Atoll to protest against nuclear testing. Susi was in Maine, New England, studying human ecology at university othe island of Mt Desert, "not dissimilar to Waiheke. " Their four-year old daughter Brenna was with her. She was at her cleaning job with the radio on and there was a news bulletin which briefly said a Greenpeace vessel had been sunk and a Dutch crew member killed.

"I initially thought it was the yacht Vega. I was absolutely panicky. I contacted the radio station and they were saying well who are you? I couldn't co-ordinate my movements. "

She was barely home before a TV news crew arrived. "They said, who do you think is responsible? I said I knew it was the French. I think we all knew instinctively. A colleague in France had been receiving death threats. "

During the interview the phone rang and it was Martini in Auckland. "He was beside himself. So upset. He told me it was Fernando (who had drowned). That he had tried to go after him and had been pushed back by the water. I felt helpless and hopeless on the other side of the world.
http://www.waihekegulfnews.co.nz/index. ... imitstart=

Yet in this article it says that crew member Hanne Sorenson was the partner of Martini Gotje the First Mate.
Fernando Pereira was worried about his cameras. He called out that he was going below to get them. He was quickly followed by Martini, who couldn't find his partner Hanne Sorensen
http://web.archive.org/web/201203102146 ... kbomb.html

The whole saga comes across as being very inconclusive, no accurate confirmation of what times the bombs went off.
It would be useful to know if the 2 bombs had pre set detonation times, or were detonated by remote control.

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Re: Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior — hoax, set-up or RIP?

Unread post by Seneca » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:54 am

antipodean wrote: The whole saga comes across as being very inconclusive, no accurate confirmation of what times the bombs went off.
It would be use full to know if the 2 bombs had pre set detonation times, or were detonated by remote control.
You raise good points, but I would find it more suspicious if there was an accurate confirmation of what times the bombs went off.
Because there is no way the exact moment could have been recorded in the chaos of an evacuation.

From what I read, the bombs had preset detonation times.
Last edited by Seneca on Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior — hoax, set-up or RIP?

Unread post by Seneca » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:19 am

It wouldn't be a good conspiracy without a link to Israel.
Christine Cabon (alias Frederique Bonlieu Cabon)

Cabon joined the French army in 1977, and was later transferred to the intelligence gathering and evaluation wing of the Direction Generale de la Securite Exterieure (DGSE - French Secret Service). She infiltrated the Greenpeace New Zealand office in April 1985 to uncover plans for the Greenpeace Moruroa trip and gathered directions, maps, and information for the Ouvea crew and the Turenges. She left New Zealand on May 24 1985; at the time of the bombing she was in Israel. The same day the Auckland police asked the Israeli authorities to arrest her, she was warned off by the DGSE and was able to leave Israel before Israeli authorities arrested her. She has since disappeared.
http://www.greenpeace.org/international ... r/rainbow/

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Re: Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior — hoax, set-up or RIP?

Unread post by antipodean » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:39 am

You raise good points, but I would find it more suspicious if there was an accurate confirmation of what times the bombs went off. Because there is no way the exact moment could be recorded
Wonder where the 11.38pm & 11.45pm timings came from. (also noticed that the wikipedia page has been recently updated by an anonymous user)
Gxwreenpeace photographer Pereira had documented birth deformities and cancerous thyroids that testified to the Marshall Islands' continuing contamination by radioactive fallout from United States nuclear tests in the 1950s. In three trips over 12 days, the Rainbow Warrior ferried the people of the Rongelap Atoll, with all their belongings and dismantled homes, to another island.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=10656635

I find the above quite interesting. Now I don't doubt for one minute that on their way to Auckland, the Rainbow Warrior crew helped out the Marshall Islanders .

The whole problem I have with the Nuke issue is that for the threat to exist, once an area has been Nuked it remains radio active.
The surviving crew members of the Rainbow Warrior, should now be showing signs of contamination.

I googled 'Marshall Island Radio Active Human deformities' up came images of deformed Marshall Islanders, and some of them reminded me of the victims of the Thaldomide drug, who had birth deformities resulting from their pregnant mothers taking the drug to ease bad morning sickness, in the late 50s early 60s.

What if the nuclear testings were not Nuclear, but testings for Chemical/ Biological weapons.
Handy that the photographic documentation is now destroyed.

I find the whole concept of the nuclear bomb a bit odd. Does it's nuclear component produce an extra large detonation, or do those in military circles get their jollies at the thought of the damage that the radio active fall out can cause.
But as discussed on here just a hoax in all probability.
Last edited by antipodean on Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

Seneca
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Re: Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior — hoax, set-up or RIP?

Unread post by Seneca » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:52 am

antipodean wrote:What if the nuclear testings were not Nuclear, but testings for Chemical/ Biological weapons.Handy that the photographic documentation is now destroyed.
Sounds plausible, especially if you mean by "Chemical/ Biological weapons" conscription drugs, like the Thalidomide you mentioned.

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Re: Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior — hoax, set-up or RIP?

Unread post by Critical Mass » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:47 am

antipodean wrote:I googled 'Marshall Island Radio Active Human deformities' up came images of deformed Marshall Islanders, and some of them reminded me of the victims of the Thaldomide drug, who had birth deformities resulting from their pregnant mothers taking the drug to ease bad morning sickness, in the late 50s early 60s.
I can find few pictures, if any, that are verifiably of Marshall Island babies... I've been looking for evidence of these 'Jellyfish babies' in particular.

It's like most nuke stories... lots of stats not much to actually back the numbers up with.

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Re: Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior — hoax, set-up or RIP?

Unread post by Seneca » Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:19 pm

Back tot the bombing of the RW.

There are different versions of what happened. Especially surrounding the moment the order to abandon ship was given.
If I was the captain and saw a huge (2.4 x 1.5m) hole below the waterline, I think I would give the order immediately. This happens only in some versions:

http://web.archive.org/web/201203102146 ... kbomb.html
"At 11:49 an electric blue flash was seen (who saw this?) in the water beside the Warrior, quickly followed by a huge explosion. 'Bloody hell... It's from the engine room,' shouted Davey Edward after he was thrown from his chair against the wall. As everyone raced from the mess, Davey ran to the engine room. He was hardly able to open the door. It was like a huge steam bath, with water hissing in through the gaping hole torn in the ship's side.

Captain Pete Willcox, jolted awake, stumbled down to the engine room. One look was enough. 'Abandon ship, everyone get the hell out of here!' he shouted as the ship keeled over towards the wharf."
Here is another version:
http://www.greenpeace.org/international ... n-and-now/
11:48 Marsden Dock, Auckland, 10 July 1985: The Rainbow Warrior is going down. Captain Peter Willcox wakes from his bunk thinking, "we'd been in a collision with another boat at sea." Having peered out of his cabin porthole, Willcox saw "the lights of Marsden wharf" where the ship was docked and "figured it wasn't my fault".

"I put on a towel and walked to the engine room, where I found the chief engineer, Davey Edwards, shaking his head, saying 'its all over, she's finished'." Willcox called for everyone to be woken so they could figure out what to do. "Martini Gotje, the first mate, was at the bottom of the stairs leading to the lower accommodation, I asked him if everyone was up and he said yes. That's when the second bomb went off, right under our feet! That is when I ordered abandon ship." Only a couple of minutes passed between the explosions.

"I walked back to my cabin, because by this time I had lost my towel. I wanted to get something to wear before I hit the dock and then I felt the ship start to keel over towards the dock. I walked back aft calling out abandon ship."
This is consistent with the story as told in the book: Rainbow Warriors: Legendary Stories from Greenpeace Ships, see http://newint.org/books/politics/rw_chapter1.pdf

The following phrase is not consistent with all other versions:
New Zealand
"However, after the initial evacuation, some of the crew returned to the vessel to investigate and document the attack"


And how exactly did Fernando die? His death is attributed to the second explosion, but this must have been much smaller than the first.

Wake of the Rainbow Warrior: Counter-Terrorism Action/Romance:
10 people were aboard at the time but only one man died - the photographer Fernando Pereira. He was stunned by the second bomb and died in his cabin.
A Century of Spies: Intelligence in the Twentieth Century:
At the time 12 people were still on board including captain Peter Willcox and expedition photographer Fernando Pereira. Both men quickly left the ship, but Pereira then made a fatal error in judgment, returning to the ship to retrieve his photographic gear. He had barely entered his cabin before the force of the second explosion turned the ship on its side and killed him instantly.
http://www.geocities.ws/shipwrecks_magazine/rainbow.htm
As confusion took over and people ran from the stricken ship, searching faces to ensure nobody was left aboard, Fernando made his way down the perilous stairs to his cabin with the aim of retrieving his cameras. It was a fatal decision. A second explosive had been attached to the hull. This one was to ensure that should the wreck be raised it would be irreparable. When it exploded it shattered the stern, bending the propeller shaft and mangling the propeller itself. The final effect of the second blast was that the aft ballast tank was destroyed. This tank was filled with water, and more importantly, formed the deck that Fernando Pereira was standing on. The Portugese photographer who had left his native country to avoid conscription into the Armed forces, fighting colonial wars in Africa and Asia, was killed, engulfed by water and drowned.
Is it normal for someone to disobey an order to abandon ship? Shouldn't the captain be the last man to leave the ship? And prevent people from reentering it. His priority, after giving the order, was "to get something to wear before I hit the dock".

What is most strange is that the French Secret Service didn't try tot make it look like an accident or blame some other individual or organisation. So they were immediately blamed. Isn't that very unusual? You could say in this case the conspiracy theory quickly went mainstream.

Finally, could there be a connection with the event at Chernobyl, less than a year later? Both events were anti-nuclear and gave Greenpeace much credibility. Goodnight.

[Very nice work. Remember "to" isn't spelled "tot" but I know English is not your first language. -hp] Yes, thanks for your help. I just managed to get my spell checker to work in firefox. Before this I had to copy and paste the text into thunderbird to do a spelling check.

Missed one :P brianv
Edit: Fixed 2 errors then instead of than. Was it that?
Last edited by Seneca on Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

hoi.polloi
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Re: Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior — hoax, set-up or RIP?

Unread post by hoi.polloi » Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:02 am

Nice digging, Seneca. Thanks.

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts, and for presenting your case. Well done. This should make for very interesting reading for future readers to come.

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Re: Greenpeace's Rainbow Warrior — hoax, set-up or RIP?

Unread post by Seneca » Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:22 am

To visualize the impact of the sinking of the RW and of Chernobyl, here is a graph made by Google Books Ngram Viewer that shows the usage of some words from this topic in the period 1981-1988. Any suggestions for other words?

Edit: You can also choose British or American English, for what it is worth.

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