THE NUKE HOAX

Global War deceptions & mass manipulation, fear-mongering terror schemes and propaganda in the Age of the Bomb
Macaria
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Re: THE NUKE HOAX

Unread post by Macaria »

Dear Simon,

What I’m saying is: while we have very good reason to question the number of Hiroshima / Nagasaki bombing victims and the various bomb accounts, I believe there were real victims of a real bombing and I want to be careful not to overstate victim fakery.

Yes, I became aware of Thurlow via this thread.
**********

I have found a few other bits and pieces:

Similar to the accounts in my previous post, she says that the bomb blast had this effect on her:
https://www.thestar.com/news/2007/06/19 ... _view.html

"I felt I was swimming or floating in the air. I guess my body was thrown."

Similarly she says that her
https://nationalpost.com/news/this-is-w ... ears-later

"body started floating through the air"

And apart from the eyeball and gut afflictions, according to her, bomb victims' "hair was standing on end"

Besides her questionable claims, her high renown and high level of media attention are reasons enough for suspicion. She appears to be one of the most high profile anti-nuke campaigners out there and as noted was rewarded with a UN prize and all.

About her husband.

The second source above describes James Thurlow very modestly as “a high school history teacher in Toronto”
He was more than that.

https://www.legacy.com/ca/obituaries/th ... =150611603
In 1952 Jim responded to the call of the United Church of Canada to teach in Japan at Kwansei Gakuin, a United Church related school. He spent eight happy years teaching English at the high school and history at the university.
(…)
In 1962 Jim returned to Toronto with his family where he had an opportunity to teach at Don Mills Collegiate Institute, and thoroughly enjoyed his teaching career as the Head of the History department until his retirement in 1991. He challenged students to think critically, both in the classroom and during many study tours to the USSR during the Cold War, as well as to other European, Asian and African countries. Deeply concerned about Canada's silence over the intensifying nuclear arms race, he became instrumental in mobilizing concerned colleagues in the mid-1970s to organize a disarmament education group, Hiroshima - Nagasaki Relived, with the support of the mayors of Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Toronto. He established the James and Setsuko Thurlow Scholarship in Peace and Disarmament Studies at the University of British Columbia. (…)Indeed he was a man of global vision and local action.
So he was also a big anti-nuke campaigner, a globetrotter and a people mobiliser. I note that he was teaching history in a recently defeated Japan in what was an important period for establishing / standardising the recent historical record. And though it might have been innocent and all, not too many ordinary westerners visited the USSR, less still on multiple occasions. Sounds a little spooky to me.

Finally, Setsuko Thurlow is distantly related by marriage to current Japanese PM Kishida, whose family includes many politicians - according to Kishida's Japanese wakipedia page.
サーロー節子(反核運動家、従叔祖父・岸田人見の義妹、8親等)
Goggle translation: Setsuko Thurlow (Anti-nuclear activist, sister-in-law of Hitomi Kishida, 8th degree)

Bonus beat

Star Trek’s George Takei is a more distant Kishida connection.
ジョージ・タケイ(俳優、従叔祖父・岸田人見の義甥、9親等)
George Takei (actor, nephew-in-law of Hitomi Kishida, ninth degree)

I don’t know how close this makes Thurlow and Takei
Macaria
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Re: THE NUKE HOAX

Unread post by Macaria »

And now for some Australiana, nuclear style.

Follow this link to find a short clip of one of the alleged Australian Maralinga nuclear detonations.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-10/ ... 101310032
Which detonation? The ABC do not bother to tell us.

We get 4 whole seconds of bomb, with typically poor production values- crappy audio, crappy video and crappy drama.
Do the vocals match up with the reaction of the soldiers? (no)
And don't those guys look amazed at the spectacle! (They don't)
Mansur
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Re: THE NUKE HOAX

Unread post by Mansur »

Macaria wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:57 pm The cliché that Japanese culture is very conformist is broadly true and most Japanese feel the pressure to conform keenly. This desire to ‘fit in’ coupled with a pariah status attributed to anyone considered radiation affected created a climate where one would dare let it be known that they were even in Hiroshima on the day, let alone were impacted by the bombing.
The proverbial conformism of the Japanese (and the Far East in general) has nothing to do with the propaganda-dominated (Western) situation today.

The 'national character' which is used to be proud of is entirely a product of propaganda (even if it seems derogatory to some, to a Yankee perhaps, to think about it for a moment or two). And I don't think any fool would consider Japan anything other than a Western country.

That 'cliché' is mainly based on, or comes from, their traditional way of life. And ‘traditional’ means that it is a practice that has been built up, or rather cultivated, over centuries, sanctioned and consciously maintained by many-many generations, - and which has no ‘dark secrets’ behind it...(to expose). Presumably, there is nothing of that today!!!

The fact that the 'Land of the Rising Sun' has become 'Westernised' in its entirety and for quite some time now, can perhaps be taken as symbolic. (The Americans burnt up the whole country, some sixty plus cities, among them the famous two - it is not impossible that one of the important aims of the never-ending propaganda about these two cities was to divert attention to them, to 'moral considerations' concerning Americans’ responsibility, etc. The subsequent 'invasion' could perhaps be described as propagandist rather than military in nature. And the so-called 'Japanese miracle' was in the making...)


On the other hand: all peoples, without exception, simply as such, as people, are necessarily 'conformists', i.e. they inevitably adapt to the status quo, the system of power. There must be a minority in power (democracy is nonsense), but there is no need for them to be villains. At least in the past, this was always an exception, and was considered to be so, - but now it seems to be the law... In other words, everyone (in their hearts) feels and thinks it is normal. But I digress.

The fact that the Japanese had some kind of conformist tradition should actually be a reason rather for some kind of hope (that something of it might still exist there), because this 'conformism' (as a culture, or part of it, i.e. as a conscious practice) refers to externals, to the learning of external rules and their conscious routine observances, - and to the equally (or more) conscious routine detachment of these externals from everything that is not external... (The western mass propaganda, in the first place, if not so consciously, but maybe even with a more secure sense, is perhaps aimed at this very faculty of perception.) What I mean here is that it is perhaps to be assumed that the vigilance on this matter might be much broader there than in the West, but that in the same time it does not and cannot, ipso facto, appear on any media platform. Quite certainly not in an explicit way. One is not willing to mingle with those launched for muddying the waters.


If you don't mind, Macaria, I'd like to ask -
- what makes you think there are such things as bona fide witness testimonies.*
- Why the 'confiscation of documents' and the fact that no particular mention of it is made seems so new or unusual to you.
- Why do you think that in the decades since then even a single non propaganda book on ‘nuclear weapons’ has been or could be published.
- The 'pariah status' referred to above is not clear to me: did this mean lengthy and compulsory hospital care or something similar, or that people treated him as an infectious person and dangerous to come into direct contact with? I have not heard of such a thing, and while I would not want to pre-judge, it is rather suspicious, it seems to bear the hallmarks of a 'post-publicity' treatment. It also, incidentally, seems to contradict that very conformism. (If, before the cities were burned, they were first evacuated, as I believe they were -- although I haven't dealt with the subject for quite some time, but it seems logical enough, since it eliminates tens of thousands of ('surviving') eyewitnesses whose accounts would be more or less consistent with each other, and not the cavalcade that the official eyewitness accounts provide -- well, then such a 'pariah status story' from the propaganda side seems pretty familiar, doesn't it?)

* Why do you think that any plausible or even meaningful estimate can be made as to how much of the testimony - both collectively and separately - is real or realistic; - that ultimately, and to some extent, it can be inferred from it as to "what really happened"? Were the propagandists that stupid and inconsistent?
simonshack wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:52 pm
(‘Hiroshima: Before and After’)
This guy calls himself father of nuclear revisionism, and as far as the Internet is concerned, he's probably right. But why do we think there was no world before the internet? That is a very long thread (from an old archived forum, in one single file), longer than this one, and besides the 'bomb' it deals quite a lot with the circumstances of the Japanese economic boom.

(And commentators occasionally amuse themselves with such old conundrums:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bibp4gp7im5z6 ... x.jpg?dl=0 )
Macaria
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Re: THE NUKE HOAX

Unread post by Macaria »

Hi Mansur,

Thanks for your questions.

I don’t know what you mean by “westernised”. Japan is an (overtly) occupied country for sure and absolutely part of the NWO. In what sense is Japan a western country?
The Americans burnt up the whole country, some sixty plus cities, among them the famous two - it is not impossible that one of the important aims of the never-ending propaganda about these two cities was to divert attention to them
Yes, the Hiroshima / Nagasaki stories primarily get attention because they prop up the nuke mythology. And in all that noise, other bombings, though more devastating, are forgotten. However, even though there is so much focus on the nukings, it is most often framed as though it were natural disaster. So the US get little flak for Hiroshima Nagasaki anyway...

Responding to your questions:

-As long as I see a possibility of genuine Hiroshima / Nagasaki bomb victims / witnesses of some sort, then there is the possibility of genuine testimonies. Should I dismiss this possibility? This is separate to the question of determining what really happened, to which I am in agreement with you; trawling the testimonies would be an unprofitable labour.

-The case of censorship highlighted above is not so “new or unusual”. However, I do think it is an important part of the evidence of hoaxery. Folk here at Clues Forum have done an admirable job of examining alleged A-bomb detonation videos and exposing the scientific hoaxsters etc. So, as we well know, the A-bomb is fakety fake and therefore censorship and history fabrication necessarily must have occurred. I think it is worthwhile to document evidence of this where it exists.

-Not sure what you are asking here. My answer: The press / publishers are tightly controlled. In the case of Japan, they were under direct military style censorship for years after - until the occupiers were sure they had a secure regime and a secure control of history.

- My point about Japanese type conformity is that being seen as an outsider, even to a small degree, is very undesirable. To be in a bomb affected area would make one an outsider to a large degree because of the radiation fears. No one would associate with a person with such a history, for even if they did not fear the radiation, they would become an outsider by association. Therefore, this, apart from any other forms of censorship, would help ensure that no one openly discuss their own bomb history. I acknowledged in my earlier post that this fear of radiation may have been deliberately promulgated.

I don’t discount the possibility the cities were completely evacuated. The cities were at least population depleted: many men were away to fight for the country, and it is a common story that, usually children, were moved out to family in the countryside to get away from bombs and for better access to food.
Note that there were tens of thousands of Germans that worked at the alleged death camps who would have had consistent and contradictory stories to the now accepted history. This appears to have been little trouble for the creation of what has been claimed to be the “most studied area of history”. Point being that a complete evacuation would not have been necessary to establish the currently accepted version of events.

Thanks for the forum link you provided - very interesting. From 2004!
Mansur
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Re: THE NUKE HOAX

Unread post by Mansur »

Macaria wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:37 pmI don’t know what you mean by “westernised”. Japan is an (overtly) occupied country for sure and absolutely part of the NWO. In what sense is Japan a western country?
Strange you ask that. In what sense it is not? - Democracy, modern science and technocracy, modern laws and administration, compulsory education western both in methods and stuff, 'pop-culture' (it may be added items to make the list more complete, you already mentioned press-media-propaganda*): these are what western life is organized around. (And that is really a 'brand new world', but as to its being an 'order' in any sense whatsoever, I am a denier.)
* Poor Orwell, with his primitive 'thought-police' fantasies!!

'Should I dismiss…?' – I don't know. But why to maintain it? It makes no particular difference whether some of the eyewitness testimony is bona fide or all of it is fabricated or manipulated, at least I don't see any difference, do you?

Then: there is absolutely no need to know or find out, separately or otherwise, 'what really happened'! (Even if that were possible at all.) That's exactly the job they leave to the controlled guys! It would indeed be 'unprofitable' to follow their example.
________

The problem with documentation is I think that if you document or want to document the lack of documentation, it cannot but give wings to some fantasy as to the content of that documentation. And perhaps similar thoughts like this have already crossed the minds of some propagandists... 'The case cannot be closed until all, perhaps the most important witness testimony is found and checked'...and such like. The confiscation story* too can be fake or faked, can't it?
* - or at least the presentation of it; the attitude being what determines everything not the 'facts' so-called. It is always a curious thing by the way what people in their carelessness call fact.

The ingenuity of the controlled guys is not to be underestimated, even if they do their job for the most part apparently routinely; they use mostly the old tried and tested scientific method so-called to gain credit and dissuade people from trying to use their own brains and follow their own methods (or instrument) of research - and especially to sharpen the power and trustworthiness of their intuition, without which there is little worth in human life.

Besides knowing that the 'atomic bomb' is a hoax (as is any other 'application' of modern nuclear physics, for that matter), there is hardly anything we need to know! More data, more research, as we see most of the time, leads people back to a 'prior standing' of, say, 'skepticism'; - I think by now pretty much everyone has forgotten how he or she actually 'changed his or her mind' on this issue, namely that it was primarily not based on information). The 'conspiracy attitude', which is pretty much synonymous to 'skepticism', is what makes one really an 'outsider' and the propagandists presumably know that very much.

In my opinion all such books are only worth discussing in terms of their propagandistic content/intent – and not of their 'good points', - the very first thing to clear up in dealing with any of them.
_____________

This 'pariah status' (this time as 'outsider') is, as I said above, new to me, can you provide some source for this, please? - We know that the radiation story developed much later (otherwise they would indeed have had to start evacuating immediately - and leave the most precious port for good), this being certainly one of the main contradictions / nonsense in the narrative.

As to the 'Japanese type conformity' again: does that differ in any degree from other 'types'? Since as you actually apply it to the 1945 bomb story, seems to show no difference at all. The same (western) picture of all-powerful propaganda we are all familiar with.
_______________

Lastly, there seems to be a considerable difference between 'tens of thousands of German soldiers' throughout a rather vast area in the middle of Europe and tens of thousands local inhabitant at the very same site – knowing nothing of the 'big bang'.* (I think not so much of their 'accounts' potentials but their very existence.) And, by the way, the existing photos feature extremely few people, and of course no piles of dead bodies. They all evaporated, it seems. Or rather they 'teleported' – 'to north from west and to west from north' – as one might assume. (As the Jews in, or from, Europe around the same period.)
* I read somewhere that the Japanese were the last to learn that they had been hit by a new super-weapon; the whole western world throughout was already horrified by press reports that the poor Japs had heard nothing about for quite some time.

But it's very fortunate of you to bring up these German soldiers: well, nobody asked them. Or at least, nobody listened to them. Why would they? Is it censorship not to ask those who might actually have something to say? - Perhaps this could be applied to the other 'points'.


'The most studied area of history' - they seem to be quite right with that phrase, and indeed that is what 'study' or 'history' looks like at its highest (?) point of development.
________________________
Mansur
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Re: THE NUKE HOAX

Unread post by Mansur »

It was some years ago that I read Karel Čapek's books - as much as I could get my hands on…

While I know that he had an absolute respect for H. G. Wells and did much to establish a personal relationship with him, he was certainly a far more significant writer on his own, rather than allowing one to assume any outside influence in his choice of subject.

I mention him here because it can illustrate how much the penetration of atomic physics into the imagination of people, i.e. in art and through art, preceded the self-evident nature of everyday press reports. That people began to expect more and more from matter, from within matter, or from the inside of matter, as it were, to find solutions to social situations… For there was plenty to be resolved! And if one is an artist, this will necessarily play a role in his work. ('Space travel' also has considerable records, - it certainly didn't spring from Clarke's mind, - and in general: nothing springs from the minds of such people!)

Perhaps there are several books of his that could be mentioned, but two of them definitely seem to belong here. I couldn't find a description of the first one, only about the movie (1948!) based on it:
https://www.amazon.com/Krakatit-Skola-o ... B00KA6ZLBW

Based on a novel by Karel Capek, a prominent Czech writer of the early 20th century, who coined the word robot for his play R.U.R., the story revolves around a discovery of Krakatit-a powerful explosive by Prokop, the main character of the movie. After an accidental explosion in the lab, exhausted Prokop slips in and out of dream-like hallucinations. He later realizes that in his altered state of consciousness he had given the formula for making Krakatit to one of his colleagues, and he tries to stop its spread before it is too late. But there are too many dark, powerful forces interested in the ultimate explosive.

Image

[The book itself is available online:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Krakatit ]
The other one has a wiki page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Absolute_at_Large

The story centers on the invention of a reactor that can annihilate matter to produce cheap and abundant energy. Unfortunately, it produces something else as a by-product, the absolute. The absolute is a spiritual essence that according to some religious philosophies permeates all matter. It is associated with human religious experience, as an unsuspecting humanity is to find out all too soon in the story. The widespread adoption of the reactors cause an enormous outpouring of pure absolute into the world. This leads to an outburst of religious and nationalist fervor, causing the greatest, most global war in history….

Absolute does more than affect minds. It also does physical work. During the war, it causes catastrophes against the enemy (various parts of absolute support any given side in the conflict). At some point, it also becomes interested in production of material goods and produces them, in a supernatural manner, in enormous quantities. This leads to economic collapse and, absurdly enough, deficit of all manufactured items because, allegedly, once the price of goods has dropped to zero because of absolute, nobody cares to produce or distribute them any more. Starvation is averted because although absolute does not produce food, the peasants who do naturally do not let the price drop to zero. In fact they force every last penny from the urban population in return for food, hence saving humanity.
anonjedi2
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Re: THE NUKE HOAX

Unread post by anonjedi2 »

Hiroshima Revisited - The evidence that napalm and mustard gas helped fake the atomic bombings.

by Michael Palmer
PDF - 317 Pages
Attachments
Hiromshima Revisited.pdf
(4.99 MiB) Downloaded 45 times
Mansur
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Re: THE NUKE HOAX

Unread post by Mansur »

anonjedi2 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 2:28 pm Hiroshima Revisited - The evidence that napalm and mustard gas helped fake the atomic bombings.

by Michael Palmer
PDF - 317 Pages
Yes, the book is about the 'faking'. - And not about the hoax!
And if anyone is curious enough, the book will even tell him what a real nuclear explosion is like!!
So it's a bit like when paleontologists complain that fraudsters are ruining their science with their fake dinosaurs.

https://cluesforum.info/viewtopic.php?p ... 1#p2414781
Rusty ’dropped a link’ to it (from Henry Makow site) already.
Macaria
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Re: THE NUKE HOAX

Unread post by Macaria »

Whether one thinks the highlighting of a certain narrative is worthwhile or not is a matter of perspective.
Mansur wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:52 am Besides knowing that the 'atomic bomb' is a hoax (...), there is hardly anything we need to know!
I understand if anyone is over the bomb.
In my case, I’m interested in these ‘atomic’ bombing events. And this fakery is still pretty new to me.
Mansur wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:52 am The confiscation story* too can be fake or faked, can't it?
Hmmm. Were there ever any of these materials in the first place? I think yes, because hospitals keep records. But the material didn’t fit the narrative, so, confiscation or not, it had to go. There must have also been a photographic record, and that has surely been disappeared. So, the story is at least partially true, even if misleading.

‘Knowing’ as we claim, that the bombs are fake, (better to say that there is no good evidence of their existence), necessarily implies information suppression - no surprises there. However, evidence that illustrates this is uncommon. So, even at face value, the story is useful, because it is an admitted break down in the chain of evidence -(and I don't think many researchers have highlighted the fact there are no newspaper photos of the bombed city (cities?) to be found).
Mansur wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:52 am In my opinion all such books are only worth discussing in terms of their propagandistic content/intent – and not of their 'good points'
I recognise this is a sound approach. Reflecting on this, I focus on the fact that the book I cited must have passed through the censor and moreover, may have been completely coached / ghost written. So the whole confiscation account may be a carefully and plausibly crafted story to nicely explain the fact of the missing material.

Mansur wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:52 am This 'pariah status' (this time as 'outsider') is, as I said above, new to me, can you provide some source for this, please?
As I said, this idea is common in the literature. Wakipi’s Hibakusha entry has a sub-section for it:
Discrimination

Hibakusha and their children were (and still are) victims of severe discrimination when it comes to prospects of marriage or work due to public ignorance about the consequences of radiation sickness, with much of the public believing it to be hereditary or even contagious.
This repeatedly comes up in ‘hibakusha’ life stories. (I'm not saying this makes it all true BTW).
Mansur wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:52 am As to the 'Japanese type conformity' again: does that differ in any degree from other 'types'?
Do you mean from conformity in other cultures? Yes. I said it was a more powerful force than in many other cultures. This is a widely held stereotype, yes, but it is also my experience.

Regarding Japan and westernism, I kind of see what you are driving at:
Mansur wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:52 am Democracy, modern science and technocracy, modern laws and administration, compulsory education western both in methods and stuff, 'pop-culture' (it may be added items to make the list more complete, you already mentioned press-media-propaganda*): these are what western life is organized around.
Japanese society/governmental structures have adopted these things. These things (perhaps all – but how to judge what are ‘modern’ laws and administration?) originated in the “west”. Therefore, you are saying, Japan is westernised.

However, I don’t think using “western” in those terms is descriptively useful. Trains were first developed in the west. India has trains. Therefore India is a little bit westernised. Add up a lot of technical innovations that began in the west (this can include education and government systems) India adopts them. That means India is 'a lot' westernised. Maybe. I don't think so.

Moreover these metrics would make most countries of the world more or less western. It would mean Japan is more western than some western nations. It would also mean that western countries of the past would not have been very western – no pop-culture, no technocracy no modern science for starters, but then gradually became more western. But then they could drop them and become...what? Now, that doesn't make much sense.

As for “in what sense is Japan not (western)” – arts, aesthetics psychology, group dynamics, customs, religious practices a lot of stuff. Even things that superficially appear familiar (or western) to people of other countries are actually distinctly different.

I liked this point:
Mansur wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:52 am 'The most studied area of history' - they seem to be quite right with that phrase, and indeed that is what 'study' or 'history' looks like at its highest (?) point of development.
And what with all the past and upcoming Hollywood filmery about it and with the holocaust memorials springing up in a city near you, it is only becoming more and more studied!
Mansur
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Re: THE NUKE HOAX

Unread post by Mansur »

Hi Macaria, -

Sorry, but you seem somewhat 'cherry-picking' in your response.

I certainly did not want to hold you back in your research, I just wanted to make it clear that this is not, in my opinion, a risk-free activity, at least as far as the happy outcome is concerned, - which is obviously not the search itself. Some of your wording seems over-cautious, as if you are among people who have hostile feelings about the matter and who despite of this you would have to convince of something.
____________________________

The hibakusha thing is indeed a 'gold mine' for those who want to study propaganda in its bottom trawling activity. The few articles I have seen all call it 'story' or 'history'.

I haven't dived into the mire of statistical data, but one of them says:
As of 2016, an estimated 174,000 hibakusha remain alive today. They and their descendants still face discrimination in Japan, particularly with marriage. Many continue to conceal the truth of their history and the suffering that their families endured.
The figure seems to me to suggest that this particular radiation was extremely beneficial to health, - and of course that this story-line is certainly not about to end in the near future.
_____________________________________
Macaria wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:52 pm Regarding Japan and westernism, I kind of see what you are driving at:
Mansur wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:52 am Democracy, modern science and technocracy, modern laws and administration, compulsory education western both in methods and stuff, 'pop-culture' (it may be added items to make the list more complete, you already mentioned press-media-propaganda*): these are what western life is organized around.
Japanese society/governmental structures have adopted these things. These things (perhaps all – but how to judge what are ‘modern’ laws and administration?) originated in the “west”. Therefore, you are saying, Japan is westernised.

However, I don’t think using “western” in those terms is descriptively useful. Trains were first developed in the west. India has trains. Therefore India is a little bit westernised. Add up a lot of technical innovations that began in the west (this can include education and government systems) India adopts them. That means India is 'a lot' westernised. Maybe. I don't think so.

Moreover these metrics would make most countries of the world more or less western. It would mean Japan is more western than some western nations. It would also mean that western countries of the past would not have been very western – no pop-culture, no technocracy no modern science for starters, but then gradually became more western. But then they could drop them and become...what? Now, that doesn't make much sense.

As for “in what sense is Japan not (western)” – arts, aesthetics psychology, group dynamics, customs, religious practices a lot of stuff. Even things that superficially appear familiar (or western) to people of other countries are actually distinctly different.
You seem to forget that 'western' here is just a word for modernity or modernism.

The fact that modernism developed in the West obviously has its reasons, but whatever they may be, that does not make it specifically Western. In other words, modernism is not part of Western culture. The fact that we see nothing today, far or near, but the products of this 'modernism', does not mean that we should call it culture. And if you say that 'by this logic' Japan is more western than many countries in the West, I would reply that this is indeed the case, and that it also applies to 'culture'.

You use the term adoption in two places: I think - without going into detail here - that 'adoption' of the means also means adoption of the ends for which these means were created. And if anywhere, it is necessary here to weed out the stubborn propaganda slogans from one's own mind. And, by the way, the nature (and history) of these 'adoptions' might be worth a thought or two.
________________________
Macaria wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:52 pm I liked this point:
Mansur wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:52 am 'The most studied area of history' - they seem to be quite right with that phrase, and indeed that is what 'study' or 'history' looks like at its highest (?) point of development.
And what with all the past and upcoming Hollywood filmery about it and with the holocaust memorials springing up in a city near you, it is only becoming more and more studied!
I'm not clear on your reaction, - I meant literally the intellectual and scholarly study of the matter - of any matter.
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