What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Historical insights & thoughts about the world we live in - and the social conditioning exerted upon us by past and current propaganda.

Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby brianv on Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:28 pm

I am not talking about "Anarchy", I'm talking about NO government which you immediately jump on and call Anarchy. No it's not Anarchy, it's NO government. Are those 57 residents of Max "anarchists", or are they men and women going about their lives peacefully? That's the reality, not the propaganda taught by the media. The alternative to Government is NO Government NOT Anarchy...especially the kind of Anarchy that you describe.

Stateless Utopia? There you go again. Are states some sort of natural phenomena or something, are they decreed by zod or the emperor?

"Protection racketeers (like those that rule over us today), murderers, thieves, antisocial personality types.."

Yes those persons/members of fictitious social entities called "government" that you crave for. Bite me master!

"The 'government' would, hopefully, be controlled by its own inherently small size"

How naive you are.

"Err... are you imagining a "I paid for the police"

A mercenary thug has no authority over anybody!

" I suspect you'd need an 'Anarchic government' to enforce the 'anarchy'."

I rest my case.

PS Who did you vote for in the last clown election CM? Or are you one of the clowns?
Last edited by simonshack on Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: typos
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Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby bostonterrierowner on Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:43 am

@Brianv

People in Max or whatever it's called are able to live peacefully ONLY because there is a federal government otherwise they would have to build a fence around their town and arm themselves.

In a fiat monetary system money to pay taxes comes from government spending . Obviously taxation is not about revenue in such cases.

Again, I am only trying to be a pragmatic realist not a government apologist.

@Maat

absence of coinage is not a proof of "statelessness" because throughout the ages different things were used as "money" with coinage appearing relatively late in the process. Saying that the unit of account/exchange is overvalued because it's nominally worth more than commodity it's "stamped" on is pure nonsense and proof of complete ignorance or intelectual dishonesty about the nature of money, common to "libertarians" . Is your 100 $ bill overvalued ? It's obviously worth more than a little piece of paper it's printed on :)

@critical mass

In Denmark people agreed in a referendum to voluntarily increase their tax burden but IMHO it borders on a miracle to achieve such a degree of social balance and sense of public purpose as in the aforementioned country.
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Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby brianv on Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:25 pm

bostonterrierowner wrote:@Brianv

People in Max or whatever it's called are able to live peacefully ONLY because there is a federal government otherwise they would have to build a fence around their town and arm themselves.

In a fiat monetary system money to pay taxes comes from government spending . Obviously taxation is not about revenue in such cases.



I asked were they "anarchists"?

People can't live peacefully in the absence of government? Isn't that the same old media/statist propaganda?

In fact what you are saying is that "people only live together peacefully because of the threat of force by "government"".

Didn't this all protecting "federal government" actively participate in the "JFK Show", "9/11 Show", "Boston", "SandyHook" and myriad other crackpot schemes? Why is that? Is it for their own good that people are being used to finance the freak-show known as "government"?

Me typos? Nevre ;)

edit Isn't it remarkable too that every software SYSTEM ever constructed along those top-down, hierarchical lines, has failed, and failed dramatically at that. Also, how naieve of me to think of "government" as the primary tool of the "ruling classes".
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Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby bostonterrierowner on Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:45 pm

brianv wrote:People can't live peacefully in the absence of government?

IMHO unfortunatelly yes :(

In fact what you are saying is that "people only live together peacefully because of the threat of force by "government"".

As above

Didn't this all protecting "federal government" actively participate in the "JFK Show", "9/11 Show", "Boston", "SandyHook" and myriad other crackpot schemes? Why is that? Is it for their own good that people are being used to finance the freak-show known as "government"?

Governments are corrupt and for sure they do not "care" for the sheeple but they make sure there is an order in the herd they derive profits from. Psyops are just a part of the control mechanism. This a dog eat dog world Brian.




Maybe I am terribly wrong to be so distrustful of my fellow humans and this state of my mind is a product of government propaganda but it's extremely doubtful that I will ever change my mind.
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Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby brianv on Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:54 pm

bostonterrierowner wrote:
brianv wrote:People can't live peacefully in the absence of government?

IMHO unfortunatelly yes :(

In fact what you are saying is that "people only live together peacefully because of the threat of force by "government"".

As above

Didn't this all protecting "federal government" actively participate in the "JFK Show", "9/11 Show", "Boston", "SandyHook" and myriad other crackpot schemes? Why is that? Is it for their own good that people are being used to finance the freak-show known as "government"?

Governments are corrupt and for sure they do not "care" for the sheeple but they make sure there is an order in the herd they derive profits from. Psyops are just a part of the control mechanism. This a dog eat dog world Brian.




Maybe I am terribly wrong to be so distrustful of my fellow humans and this state of my mind is a product of government propaganda but it's extremely doubtful that I will ever change my mind.


Of course that distrust was nurtured over centuries by those who might benefit from it. Is it natural for men and women to distrust each other? If so, this is what we need to overcome. You don't trust your neighbours yet you trust "the" "government"?
Last edited by brianv on Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby Farcevalue on Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:17 pm

Perhaps it would be instructive to nail down the definition of "government". Obama does it here in a rare moment of honesty for a politician:


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewQl-qAtNwQ

To take it one step further, government is the perception that certain people have the legitimate authority to use violent aggression against peaceful people for whatever reason. The argument for legitimate use of violent aggression as a universal moral good is self-contradictory. Aggression implies that the victim does not want to be assaulted; there is no victim in a boxing ring and one cannot steal from those who are freely giving. Taxation cannot be a voluntary exchange, otherwise it would simply be consensual trade.

So rather than looking at "government" in terms anarchy versus the state, I prefer to state my preference in terms of trade versus extortion.

I would rather trade for goods and services, be they utilities, protection, education, etc. than be required to "pay" for them under threat of death. The death threat is not hyperbole, because that is the final stage in the escalation of violence against those who refuse to comply with those identifying themselves as "government". One can accept or reject violence as legitimate way of organizing society, the flags, uniforms, national anthems and the like are just window dressing.
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Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby Critical Mass on Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:03 pm

brianv wrote:I am not talking about "Anarchy", I'm talking about NO government which you immediately jump on and call Anarchy. No it's not Anarchy, it's NO government. Are those 57 residents of Max "anarchists", or are they men and women going about their lives peacefully? That's the reality, not the propaganda taught by the media. The alternative to Government is NO Government NOT Anarchy...especially the kind of Anarchy that you describe.

57 people surrounded by & living within the borders of the largest military power the world has ever seen... that's your test example?

Either way it should be (again) noted that a voluntary taxation system would create a government so small & weak as to be virtually unnoticeable in most circumstances. Max would be pretty damn commonplace under a voluntary system but there'd still be enough centralized structure to allow the mega-cities, where most of humanity actually live, to function.

Yes those persons/members of fictitious social entities called "government" that you crave for. Bite me master!


Crave for? Did I actually say I would voluntarily contribute? I think you'll find I didn't.

How naive you are.


You believe you can totally abandon seven billion fully domesticated &, for the most part, completely insane slaves and end up with Max... and I'm naive?

I rest my case

My point remains... how would you enforce this lack of government or prevent a new one from forming in this fantasy world of yours?

PS Who did you vote for in the last clown election CM? Or are you one of the clowns?

I last voted when I was a kid... 1997 it must've been. I voted New labour. I'm not a member of the UK government brian. Do you have an actual point to make?
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Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby bostonterrierowner on Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:56 pm

Critical Mass wrote:
You believe you can totally abandon seven billion fully domesticated &, for the most part, completely insane slaves and end up with Max... ?


We would end up with another Max , mad one :)

Seriously this Max thing can be compared to children playing inside their safe houses under parents' scrutiny .
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Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby Maat on Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:22 pm

Farcevalue wrote:Perhaps it would be instructive to nail down the definition of "government". Obama does it here in a rare moment of honesty for a politician:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewQl-qAtNwQ

To take it one step further, government is the perception that certain people have the legitimate authority to use violent aggression against peaceful people for whatever reason. The argument for legitimate use of violent aggression as a universal moral good is self-contradictory. Aggression implies that the victim does not want to be assaulted; there is no victim in a boxing ring and one cannot steal from those who are freely giving. Taxation cannot be a voluntary exchange, otherwise it would simply be consensual trade.

So rather than looking at "government" in terms anarchy versus the state, I prefer to state my preference in terms of trade versus extortion.

I would rather trade for goods and services, be they utilities, protection, education, etc. than be required to "pay" for them under threat of death. The death threat is not hyperbole, because that is the final stage in the escalation of violence against those who refuse to comply with those identifying themselves as "government". One can accept or reject violence as legitimate way of organizing society, the flags, uniforms, national anthems and the like are just window dressing.

Well stated, Farcevalue.

Thank you Brianv for the reminder that simply clarifying any misused word definition is useless in the face of long-term government indoctrination; imprinting negative connotations on any concept perceived as a threat to their self-appointed “omniscience”. Language is always hijacked by the “ruling class” (Pigs In Charge) when control of mass perceptions is at stake — “the dogma is in the language”, of course!

We do have to try to coin our own descriptive terms to avoid misunderstandings; it’s too easy to forget the insidious power of word associations (e.g. “truther”, “no planer”, "Anarchist" etc.). So I certainly prefer "NO government" as a less loaded terminology.

Critical Mass;

I’m sorry, but I could not follow your responses — from your oxymoronic “voluntary taxation” non sequitur to my ‘A cage is still a cage, gilded or not’ — and your self-contradictory statements from there on. You posted Larken Rose videos that argue against government as if you agreed with them, then state the opposite? :huh:

bostonterrierowner wrote: @Maat
absence of coinage is not a proof of "statelessness" because throughout the ages different things were used as "money" with coinage appearing relatively late in the process. Saying that the unit of account/exchange is overvalued because it's nominally worth more than commodity it's "stamped" on is pure nonsense and proof of complete ignorance or intellectual dishonesty about the nature of money, common to "libertarians" . Is your 100 $ bill overvalued ? It's obviously worth more than a little piece of paper it's printed on :)

I’m not sure why you addressed that to me, BTO, since I didn’t say anything about “coinage” or money systems — unless you’re referring to the linked article on ancient Ireland where that was only mentioned as another likely indicator of their statelessness (despite trade with their coin-using neighbors), in addition to the other definitive proofs.

Trade has always been accomplished with anything of mutually agreed value, whether by barter or exchange. It makes no difference whether it’s manufactured goods, produce, shells or coins, except the latter usually requires a centralized system (monopoly) to produce and sustain. How the “mathe-magics” of centralized ("bankster") monetary control systems are contrived is of no interest to me; it’s enough to know they are illusions that can be manipulated at will by the whims of a few. Today a “$100 bill”, tomorrow toilet paper :)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I still find it highly relevant and significant that most people in Euro-centric patriarchal societies have no concept of their intrinsic imbalance (due to suppressed histories) — no proposed remedies can possibly cure or ameliorate any dis-ease until the root cause is recognized.


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA4f1DuWNQ0
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Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby Critical Mass on Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:47 pm

Maat wrote:
Critical Mass;

I’m sorry, but I could not follow your responses — from your oxymoronic “voluntary taxation” non sequitur to my ‘A cage is still a cage, gilded or not’ — and your self-contradictory statements from there on. You posted Larken Rose videos that argue against government as if you agreed with them, then state the opposite? :huh:

Perhaps that's because you expect a quick & easy answer to a 10,000 year old global problem... a silly soundbite or catchy phrase or perhaps even a rap lyric or two?

How about I briefly summarize?

Here goes...

Government is shit and I want as little to do with it as possible.



You see it's the 'as possible' that is key here... a total worldwide 'ban' on government... how would that even come about or be enforced?

If you want I can join along & fantasize with the rest of you about living in a world of Max's... however I thought Cluesforum was a place that dealt with reality?

There must be 4 or 5 million people living within a score of miles of me... all utterly dependent, and completely devoted to, a complicated & massively regulated system. We can dream all we want but that is the reality on the ground... or my ground anyhow.

I again ask how can the lack of government be enforced? Who is going to enforce it? These are simple questions and I've asked them a couple of times now.

A voluntary system is at least vaguely achievable... if enough people woke up to the 'assumed consent' hoax that is.
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Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby brianv on Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:02 pm

@CM

You voted for that lying bastard Bliar and his gang of murderers?

Do you feel any responsibility for the deaths of tens of thousands of children in Iraq and Afghanistan, bombed in their homes from 30,000ft by cowardly bastards?

@Maat Thanks for picking up on that even though I edited!

PS I voted once, when I came of age. If you could call it "voting". I looked at the names of the clowns on the paper and I spoiled it.
Oh yes about how to enforce "no government"! Drown bastards like Bliar at birth.
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Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby Critical Mass on Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:32 pm

brianv wrote:You voted for that lying bastard Bliar and his gang of murderers?

Do you feel any responsibility for the deaths of tens of thousands of children in Iraq and Afghanistan, bombed in their homes from 30,000ft by cowardly bastards?

I do actually... though I will say that at the time I did think the world, as it was presented to me, was mostly real and certainly none of them appeared to be murderers in 1997.

Either way I, again, ask for a point?


As for the drowning... who does the drowning? How is the drowning selection process handled & administered? Who disposes of the bodies? Where does this all take place... a purpose built location or in the homes of the parents? Who 'deals' with the parents? Who pays for the drowners, disposers, parent handlers & selectors? How are the selectors recruited? Who recruits them? Is this an elected position? Hereditary? A guild? Is their a pension scheme for retired baby drowners? How is that administered? Just how do you become 'chief baby drowner' in the world of brianv?
Last edited by Critical Mass on Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby brianv on Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:43 pm

Critical Mass wrote:
brianv wrote:You voted for that lying bastard Bliar and his gang of murderers?

Do you feel any responsibility for the deaths of tens of thousands of children in Iraq and Afghanistan, bombed in their homes from 30,000ft by cowardly bastards?

I do actually... though I will say that at the time I did think the world, as it was presented to me, was mostly real and certainly none of them appeared to be murderers in 1997.

Either way I, again, ask for a point?


And you still want a "government"? That's the only point I'm trying to make. Are you going to repeat the same mistake? Do you want your kids to feel the guilt of "voting" for future murderers? Perhaps one or two of them might actually join in in the killing.

"Drowning" metaphor meaning - "Anyone seeking political power should be disqualified on that basis". But in the case of Blair, his mother should have drowned him.
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Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby Critical Mass on Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:54 pm

brianv wrote:And you still want a "government"? That's the only point I'm trying to make. Are you going to repeat the same mistake? Do you want your kids to feel the guilt of "voting" for future murderers? Perhaps one or two of them might actually join in in the killing.

My Son is being raised with a full understanding of deception... his choices will be his.

What I 'want' has nothing to do with it... as I've pointed out I'm more concerned about what is realistically possible.

I can 'want' & 'fantasize' with the best of them... huge shopping lists of 'wonderful things'.

Not here on Cluesforum though... this place is special and should not be tainted with imaginary shopping lists.

"Anyone seeking political power should be disqualified on that basis"

Disqualified by whom? Who 'qualifies' people for positions of power or responsibility in a world with no central organization?
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Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby Maat on Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:23 pm

Critical Mass wrote:
Maat wrote:
Critical Mass;

I’m sorry, but I could not follow your responses — from your oxymoronic “voluntary taxation” non sequitur to my ‘A cage is still a cage, gilded or not’ — and your self-contradictory statements from there on. You posted Larken Rose videos that argue against government as if you agreed with them, then state the opposite? :huh:

Perhaps that's because you expect a quick & easy answer to a 10,000 year old global problem... a silly soundbite or catchy phrase or perhaps even a rap lyric or two?

How about I briefly summarize?

Here goes...

Government is shit and I want as little to do with it as possible.

You see it's the 'as possible' that is key here... a total worldwide 'ban' on government... how would that even come about or be enforced?

If you want I can join along & fantasize with the rest of you about living in a world of Max's... however I thought Cluesforum was a place that dealt with reality?

There must be 4 or 5 million people living within a score of miles of me... all utterly dependent, and completely devoted to, a complicated & massively regulated system. We can dream all we want but that is the reality on the ground... or my ground anyhow.

I again ask how can the lack of government be enforced? Who is going to enforce it? These are simple questions and I've asked them a couple of times now.

A voluntary system is at least vaguely achievable... if enough people woke up to the 'assumed consent' hoax that is.

CM, Before resorting to gratuitous hyperbole and insults about what you presume I might “expect” (despite my detailed, referenced posts?), perhaps you could try thinking about why you assume “force” is the only way an alternative to government could be sustained.

Where did the belief that real freedom from coercion would have to be “enforced” come from?

Since our primary purpose here is to identify and purge indoctrinated disinformation and preconceptions from our own minds as much as possible, in order to uncover the truth in a world of mass deception, any strongly held belief system needs to be reexamined before we can see anything clearly for what it really is ;)
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