Musings about "The Big Picture"

Historical insights & thoughts about the world we live in - and the social conditioning exerted upon us by past and current propaganda.
Farcevalue
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Re: Musings about "The Big Picture"

Unread post by Farcevalue » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:47 am

hoi.polloi wrote: As to whom I would classify as elders, perhaps, that is the problem: our world is really lacking in them in general.
I wonder should we be looking toward elders for guidance, as the adults have yet to prove they much to offer in that regard. Perhaps it is time we look toward children and their natural curiosity and eagerness to discover the world as it is, before we arrogantly mold them into mindless versions of ourselves with all our attendant prejudices and superstitions.

I blamed statism in an earlier post, but that could be further reduced to belief in authority. I am still reprogramming myself on a daily basis to counteract all the reality denying messages I have received over the course of my life. B.F Skinner thought it of primary importance that the PTB have the ability to convince young minds that snow was black.
simonshack wrote: I'd love to speak with the two of them too, Hoi. Unfortunately, I am a regular nobody - as most of us are - and NONE OF US will never get to speak with them. That's the plain reality of it all. But let me dream a little!...
I am a nobody who spent a few days recording Kissinger at board meeting a few years ago. (Before I ever thought about any of this stuff). He was someone you would not notice in a crowd and didn't make me shiver when I got near him. I would be surprised if he personally has the physical capacity to directly harm anyone. Which makes the belief in authority critical to their evil plans. Why does anyone ever bother to listen to these psychopaths? You want to move entire populations into subservience on your "grand chessboard"? No thanks, we'll be over here working and playing and enjoying all the things a world not under the sway of psychopaths has to offer. My dream....

hoi.polloi
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Re: Musings about "The Big Picture"

Unread post by hoi.polloi » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:43 pm

children and their natural curiosity and eagerness to discover the world as it is, before we arrogantly mold them into mindless versions of ourselves with all our attendant prejudices and superstitions.
Thank you for responding. I agree with you pretty much all the way. However, those activities are not mutually exclusive as you posit them. Encouraging children's natural curiosity and tendency to reveal discoveries is the job of the elder which your villain (the "arrogant" adult) fails at. If you observe the entire contents of this forum and its motivations, and you think about what I mean when I say that the immature childlike minds of sheltered psychopaths have taken over, I don't think you would - at the heart of it - disagree with what I am getting at.

The solution may not be best defined as wise old people with many years of experience, but is that what I really mean by "elders"? No - that is a fearful assumption. It's not what I mean. Obviously, you could define those same psychopaths as dried up old hags, windbags and farts who think they know everything. Does that sound like an "elder" to you? In the part of America I am from, "elder" still has positive connotations. It denotes a quiet observing individual who only speaks when necessary, who says wise things when they choose to speak, who may patiently repeat themselves until they are heard, doesn't shame or embarrass and sees people with compassion and with realism discovered by their natural curiosity and sense of discovery and mystery about the world -- not someone who has defined the world in a religious dogmatic pattern.

Perhaps we need better terminology so that we aren't still swinging bats at effigies of the failed authority we despise. Forgive me for taking a back seat to the argument but I don't want to talk semantics. So many terms are corrupted by the media definitions: freedom, communism, socialism, capitalism, community, democracy, republic, nation, love, hate, war, peace.

-- all words we could rightly despise for they comprise the language of the enemy, but it is a human language and we are humans. It is our language too, not just the language of authority. And if we want to beat the artificial intelligence, the television, the corporations and their stealing of our culture, I assert again that this world is in need of elders, and I don't see any amongst the old wise people of our day. We must create conditions for them to appear ... even if they first come in the form of children.

Still, I don't think any "wise beyond their years" child spouting maxims and quotes is truly wise. And there is a value to years that, in the right person, translates to usefulness to society and not just the arrogance we are wary of.

fbenario
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Re: Musings about "The Big Picture"

Unread post by fbenario » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:43 am

simonshack wrote:
fbenario wrote: Besides, the Golden Rule forces us to treat all humans, no matter how evil, as humanely we would wish to be treated.
Such individuals will just keep pissing upon the noble Golden Rule that you mention - nothing will stop their arrogance, greed and lust for power.

I am all for locking up arrogant and socially dangerous dickheads into mental institutions
And yet we still need to treat them as we would wish to be treated.

fbenario
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Re: Musings about "The Big Picture"

Unread post by fbenario » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:49 am

dcopymope wrote:Which is why I'm starting to see that all this is a huge waste of time, or a waste of my time at least. I'm not seeing anything positive coming out of this where its actually making a lick of difference.
simonshack wrote:I don't know about you guys, but I see what we do here as a public information service - with a number of quite positive and socially useful sides.
Simon, I don't think Dcopy was referring to the forum as a whole; rather, to me he is referring to wasting time trying to identify who is at the top of the perp pyramid. Still, your comment has sparked a lively, VERY worthwhile discussion of human motive and its pursuit of evil, aka 'making everything about me'.

People generally think it is quite hard to buy a man's soul. To the contrary, it is quite easy > offer him sex, power, or money, and he will cave immediately. All three shift his focus from others, to "it's all about me". This is the ultimate consequence of the Original Sin in the Garden of Eden that broke the world. Whether each of us chooses to believe that the heavens and earth will be perfected at some point, by the return of Jesus, is of course entirely up to each of us.

And to Hoi, I think the top dozen or so members here with calm demeanors certainly qualify in my mind as the Platonic ideal of an elder.

Farcevalue
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Re: Musings about "The Big Picture"

Unread post by Farcevalue » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:02 am

hoi.polloi wrote:
children and their natural curiosity and eagerness to discover the world as it is, before we arrogantly mold them into mindless versions of ourselves with all our attendant prejudices and superstitions.
Thank you for responding. I agree with you pretty much all the way. However, those activities are not mutually exclusive as you posit them. Encouraging children's natural curiosity and tendency to reveal discoveries is the job of the elder which your villain (the "arrogant" adult) fails at. If you observe the entire contents of this forum and its motivations, and you think about what I mean when I say that the immature childlike minds of sheltered psychopaths have taken over, I don't think you would - at the heart of it - disagree with what I am getting at.

The solution may not be best defined as wise old people with many years of experience, but is that what I really mean by "elders"? No - that is a fearful assumption. It's not what I mean. Obviously, you could define those same psychopaths as dried up old hags, windbags and farts who think they know everything. Does that sound like an "elder" to you? In the part of America I am from, "elder" still has positive connotations. It denotes a quiet observing individual who only speaks when necessary, who says wise things when they choose to speak, who may patiently repeat themselves until they are heard, doesn't shame or embarrass and sees people with compassion and with realism discovered by their natural curiosity and sense of discovery and mystery about the world -- not someone who has defined the world in a religious dogmatic pattern.

Perhaps we need better terminology so that we aren't still swinging bats at effigies of the failed authority we despise. Forgive me for taking a back seat to the argument but I don't want to talk semantics. So many terms are corrupted by the media definitions: freedom, communism, socialism, capitalism, community, democracy, republic, nation, love, hate, war, peace.

-- all words we could rightly despise for they comprise the language of the enemy, but it is a human language and we are humans. It is our language too, not just the language of authority. And if we want to beat the artificial intelligence, the television, the corporations and their stealing of our culture, I assert again that this world is in need of elders, and I don't see any amongst the old wise people of our day. We must create conditions for them to appear ... even if they first come in the form of children.

Still, I don't think any "wise beyond their years" child spouting maxims and quotes is truly wise. And there is a value to years that, in the right person, translates to usefulness to society and not just the arrogance we are wary of.
It's been said that most arguments could be settled with an agreement on definitions. I have been irritated and confounded by the loss of our language for a while and am afraid there are a great many formerly useful and descriptive words, a few of which you cited above, that may be lost to linguistic perversion forever. Reclaiming their meaning may be a more monumental task than creating a new set of words that can be used to describe the world that most people inhabit and desire to continue inhabiting: non-violent, voluntary, cooperative, non-aggressive. The task is to do whatever we can to inform others that the meaning of those words does not change when someone has a particular title or costume.

I appreciate the idea of elders that you described, I have encountered very few of those types of people outside of cyberspace. In regards to children and the immature psychopaths that seem to be in positions of influence, it is my contention that it is the natural tendency of children to try to learn their way through the world and to take reality at face value. It is only through twelve years of "schooling" (the critical mechanics of which could likely be accomplished in two), constant propagandizing by the media and who knows what types of family abuse and programming that these monsters (and their subjects) are created. I don't believe that people who had not been exposed to the reality distorting methods of schools and the media would have ever accepted that an airliner could disappear entirely into a building as a result of a crash in the first place. Their methods have been quite effective.

daozen
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Re: Hats Off To The Perps

Unread post by daozen » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:16 pm

burningame wrote:
To me the real question is, whether the phenomenon we are experiencing is the product of a natural process of human evolution - or some kind of religious, almost ‘alien’ anti-humanity. At the moment I swing back and forth. The fact that just a few hundred years ago we were all under the control of kings... the fact ‘democracy’ is a relatively new thing makes me feel that our rulers have always been, and will always be with us - it’s a natural, fractal-like expression of humanity, given the isolating effects of technology on both the perps and the populace. Fractal in the sense that you get twenty guys trying to run a business, shit happens; you get twenty countries trying to run something, same kind of shit happens; you get twenty Illuminati in a room - you know what I mean? The same human strengths and foibles are evident on any level of the fractal. Same thing happened in the cave - prehistoric perps. The things we are seeing here in the last few years have been enabled by the net, but the game has been going on for a long, long time.
No, it's not natural. Hunter gatherer societes (which is the type of social structure our psychologies are mostly built for) did not have this problem in the same way we do. This is, as you put it, a kind of antihuman religion that has been with us so long it almost seems natural. Nevertheless the way by which it came about was indeed natural. Unfortunately our collective ego has gone lose but fortunately nature is exponentially washing away of this megalomianiacal delusion, or will soon anyway.

burningame
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Re: Musings about "The Big Picture"

Unread post by burningame » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:56 am

Well, I'm starting to see all of this as just the current manifestation of the human race - that is, as a completely natural thing which has evolved. It may seem to be guided by anti-human forces, but that may be just a natural outcome of technology, which enables small groups of people to influence, control, (even destroy) large groups of people. "At the touch of a button..."

Today I heard a comment on the radio regarding Oz mining magnate Gina Reinhardt's attempts to gain control of media company Fairfax. The statement was to the effect that, "media doesn't exist as a public service, but as a business." If newspapers aren't selling, then they have to do **whatever** to make 'em sell.

I think all our troubles, investigated here on the forum and in the wider world, begin and end with this realisation. We are simply ruled by the dollar; but this is, I'm sure, something most of you already know.

daozen
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Re: Musings about "The Big Picture"

Unread post by daozen » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:08 pm

burningame wrote:Well, I'm starting to see all of this as just the current manifestation of the human race - that is, as a completely natural thing which has evolved. It may seem to be guided by anti-human forces, but that may be just a natural outcome of technology, which enables small groups of people to influence, control, (even destroy) large groups of people. "At the touch of a button..."

Today I heard a comment on the radio regarding Oz mining magnate Gina Reinhardt's attempts to gain control of media company Fairfax. The statement was to the effect that, "media doesn't exist as a public service, but as a business." If newspapers aren't selling, then they have to do **whatever** to make 'em sell.

I think all our troubles, investigated here on the forum and in the wider world, begin and end with this realisation. We are simply ruled by the dollar; but this is, I'm sure, something most of you already know.
I do think it's a very important realisation! ...however I would say most people haven't a clue! and a big part outright opposes it when it's presented! Self-appointed guardians of the system. Anyway, I would say it didn't come out of technology, technology just means tools. It seems it began with agriculture which led to the uncontrollable development of the ego, where our social behaviors were corrupted by the flexibility of our cultures. Surplus and a programable culture, which was a natural result of our extraordinary development is to blame, but yeah the world is fucked because it's all about the money ain't it. Anyway, I'm off to make some :P

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