What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Historical insights & thoughts about the world we live in - and the social conditioning exerted upon us by past and current propaganda.

Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby bostonterrierowner on Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:12 pm

Maat wrote:I was referring to “trade” in its original sense, of course; so the operative word is “agreed” value (as in need). If you know your perceived “garbage” (or excess) is of value to me, you will trade it for what I have to offer that you need. Right? For instance, country doctors would often accept produce or livestock from those who couldn’t pay money for their services.



"Multiple coincidences of needs" - Barter is a myth . Sophisticated trade leading to highly developed social constructs will never be achieved under "barter" system , gold standard included.
bostonterrierowner
Member
 
Posts: 849
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 10:01 pm

Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby brianv on Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:38 pm

smj wrote:As indicated by the tone of this thread, the words government and anarchy have been weaponized; not unlike the words religion and science.

Isn't it naive to assume that CM's vote for the new Fabians was counted?

Do we even need voters, or their governors, to slaughter each other? Even if governments disappeared; wouldn't the narratives remain?

And why would someone with no allegiances give a shit about the social construct we call Ireland or the souls therein contained?

Oh and by the way, there are a few smart-arses on Cluesforum but CM isn't one of them.


Another good reason for not voting. When I speak about "Ireland" I'm not referring to the "political" structure but the people of this island.

I do actually... though I will say that at the time I did think the world, as it was presented to me, was mostly real and certainly none of them appeared to be murderers in 1997.


I think was the stock reply at Nuremberg also. I was just doing my duty guv'.

Not that I'm accountable to you with your 27 posts, and for the record, I said the reply was "smart-arse" not the poster. Fool.
brianv
Member
 
Posts: 3959
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:19 pm

Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby Critical Mass on Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:22 pm

brianv wrote:I think was the stock reply at Nuremberg also. I was just doing my duty guv'.

I admit I was foolish kid... and voted on one occasion.

You can send me to Coventry for all eternity or have me 'drowned at birth' but I doubt it makes me particularly unusual on this forum... surely not everyone here was just born intrinsically 'awake' like you brian?

Either way it is clear, as smj notes, that the tone of this thread has taken a religious turn... I have neither the time nor inclination for such things so will no longer post on this topic.

My points have been made, my own* alternative idea proposed & I'm sure any neutral readers will observe that my (very simple) questions were basically left unanswered other than with 'metaphors' & questions over 'my holiness'.




* Actually some fellow called Spooner apparently came up with it before me.
Critical Mass
Member
 
Posts: 544
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:33 pm

Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby Maat on Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:32 pm

bostonterrierowner wrote:
Maat wrote:I was referring to “trade” in its original sense, of course; so the operative word is “agreed” value (as in need). If you know your perceived “garbage” (or excess) is of value to me, you will trade it for what I have to offer that you need. Right? For instance, country doctors would often accept produce or livestock from those who couldn’t pay money for their services.


"Multiple coincidences of needs" - Barter is a myth . Sophisticated trade leading to highly developed social constructs will never be achieved under "barter" system , gold standard included.

Barter is a “myth” to whom, BTO? Why change the subject (again) of what people have done for millennia to some complex “construct” of national/corporate money market systems? Why would it need to “lead to highly developed social constructs” if not to keep it controlled by corporate/government elites on a global scale? How would you know what could “never be achieved” by polycentric/cooperative communities anyway — according to what or whom?

Barter certainly wasn’t a “myth” to my father when he acquired a pony for me as a child. He worked at the time as a station hand/manager on a sheep & wheat farm in Australia (for a small wage + ‘milk, meat & cottage’ ). The neighboring farmer had an unbroken pony for sale for which my father offered his labor — a weekend of clearing a piece of land of trees & logs. And of course, you can't “tax” that.

History shows people are inventive, resourceful and spontaneous problem solvers when free of corrupting influences and coercion. I guess most can't conceive any alternatives until they can deprogram their conditioned addiction to this artificial culture of induced consumerism, controlled/exploited by governments and contrived by corporations to sell goods we don't need.

“Sophisticated” is definitely the operative word:
adjective
1. (of a person, ideas, tastes, manners, etc.) altered by education, experience, etc., so as to be worldly-wise; not naive:
a sophisticated young socialite; the sophisticated eye of a journalist.
3. deceptive; misleading.
4. complex or intricate, as a system, process, piece of machinery, or the like:
a sophisticated electronic control system.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Critical Mass, did you miss my questions?
Maat
Member
 
Posts: 1422
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:14 am

Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby brianv on Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:42 pm

Critical Mass wrote:
brianv wrote:I think was the stock reply at Nuremberg also. I was just doing my duty guv'.

I admit I was foolish kid... and voted on one occasion.

You can send me to Coventry for all eternity or have me 'drowned at birth' but I doubt it makes me particularly unusual on this forum... surely not everyone here was just born intrinsically 'awake' like you brian?

Either way it is clear, as smj notes, that the tone of this thread has taken a religious turn... I have neither the time nor inclination for such things so will no longer post on this topic.

My points have been made, my own* alternative idea proposed & I'm sure any neutral readers will observe that my (very simple) questions were basically left unanswered other than with 'metaphors' & questions over 'my holiness'.

* Actually some fellow called Spooner apparently came up with it before me.


Having lived on the front-line of a war for near 30 years probably has something to do with my outspokenness. I hate war and I hate apologists for war and I hate the purveyors of war. I wasn't born awake, it wasn't until GW1, when I got up and put one of my size 10 Caterpillar boots through the TV, that I
stirred. Then every alarm clock in the world went off on "9/11". Like the intro to Floyd's "Time".

Actually this government fanboyism is quite worrying to me, given the nature of this website.
brianv
Member
 
Posts: 3959
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:19 pm

Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby bostonterrierowner on Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:08 pm

Dear Maat ,

Your pony's price must have been related to something, the same rationale applies to your father's work. Coincidence of needs occured in this particular case. Farmer needed some landscaping job and your dad was eager to make his little girl happy. Both of them made calculations and arrived at some numerical value in Australian government tax credit - AUD/Aussie. Only via this mechanism they were able to figure out whether somebody in the deal is not being ripped off. As you can see the government money had been present in the background all the time.

What if your father had to travel through the Outback to get your pony and encountered this kind of people who occupy prison cells in today's reality and their idea of barter was different? Unless you want me to believe that with absence of government criminals automatically cease to be rapists, murderers, extortioners please tell me whose job would it be to fence them off? Again, rule of law enforced by the state ( there is no law without enforcement - a first thing they teach you at law schools ) made your happy pony moments possible.

Value of money is driven by taxes owed to authorities and yes there must be a threat of violence to make things going. People exchange the fruits of their labor in order to get tax credits necessary to extinguish their tax obligations, this is the primary mechanism behind trade. I'm a realist not a daydreamer. We may argue about the size of the government. It must only work for promotion of public purpose ( topic for another discussion ) nothing else . Score keeping, crime fighting, health care , border protection ,education, protection of the weak, caring for the ones who cannot care for themselves. This is what I stand for.

Vast majority of resources extracted by governments from us to provision themselves are wasted and do not serve public purpose. Sure thing.
bostonterrierowner
Member
 
Posts: 849
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 10:01 pm

Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby Maat on Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:14 pm

Why can’t you answer my questions, BTO? Why do you feel the need to create straw man fallacies like imaginary bogeymen in some post-apocalyptic fantasy to justify/rationalize government violence?

FYI, no one was calculating any “tax credit” to make what two people agreed was a fair deal (the farmer actually did my father a favor by thinking of something he could do for it.) You can’t impose any presumptive “formula” onto spontaneous human interactions you have no knowledge of.

NO “rule of law enforced by the state” had anything to do with my “happy pony moments”!

“( there is no [government] law without [government] enforcement - a first thing they teach you at [government] law schools )” — Exactly. That’s why it is totally unacceptable to anyone who understands how successful stateless societies really maintained order — without threat, force, imprisonment or death penalties!

To believe such horrors are either required or justified is to ignore human nature, historical facts, and our proven abilities to create non-aggressive social order for survival, harmony and defense.

Here’s a real life example of how communities can maintain social harmony, even in “government states”:

The nearby country town to the farm where I lived as a child (not “outback”) had a police station with a well liked, community oriented, constable. When he left/retired he was replaced by a guy from the city who thought it was ok to “run in” (arrest) one of the local Aborigines whenever he wanted the gaol cleaned out (or painted). When the white town’s people became aware of that abuse he found himself ostracized and quickly realized they would not tolerate that kind of attitude or behavior in their community. He left, of course.


QFFT:
brianv wrote:Simon asked the question "What is government"? "What is Anarchy"?

I'll try to answer one.

It is a lawless place where liars, murderers, thugs and criminals rule.
Maat
Member
 
Posts: 1422
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:14 am

Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby hoi.polloi on Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:32 am

bostonterrierowner wrote:
Maat wrote:I was referring to “trade” in its original sense, of course; so the operative word is “agreed” value (as in need). If you know your perceived “garbage” (or excess) is of value to me, you will trade it for what I have to offer that you need. Right? For instance, country doctors would often accept produce or livestock from those who couldn’t pay money for their services.



"Multiple coincidences of needs" - Barter is a myth . Sophisticated trade leading to highly developed social constructs will never be achieved under "barter" system , gold standard included.


What, in this case, do you imagine "sophistication" to be? Is it running accounting books of numbers on an Internet site? What is a highly developed social construct — the stock market? Tribes in the Americas came to "barter" and discuss incredibly abstract (and conversely complex and practical) ideas like trade agreements, land uses, intermarriages and so on — all without an imperial government looming over them. I would say that is incredibly sophisticated, and even more so when compared to the starving people you can find under the imperial State's idea of government.

If your suggestion is, like that Stephen Hawking prankster said, we must beware alien colonies coming to wipe us out with their diseases and powerful weapons — as was done to those tribes — and the only solution is some kind of perpetually pre-emptive mass depression, I sympathize with your empathy for the trauma of those people. Indeed all peoples of this planet have at one time or another fallen prey to the antics of an "other" that came to oppress. However, let us consider that this does not guarantee it will continue. We are trained to believe it will. That's what school is largely about, isn't it? Remember "history" class? Or perhaps "civics"? I do think we are fairly wise to the borders of our world now, there isn't any uncharted island left to explore, and therefore we can be pretty certain we citizens of the Imperium are at the very peak of technology and we are in a very good position to negotiate a different kind of future.

Sometimes, I get the feeling that a person whose blood boils when they think of a world without government is someone who has highly trained themselves to repress urges they warn us will come out of them when a government diminishes in public importance. I could be wrong and insulting, and I don't mean to be, but it is perhaps something to consider if and when we accidentally annoy members like bostonterrierowner. It's true that Critical Mass and bostonterrierowner bring up important points about the fact that we have not yet learned the lessons of the (constantly mystified and deliberately buried) past (and present) for us to make a confident step forward into anarchy.

I support a lack of government as well, but — big butt, sorry — let us give space for them to articulate themselves better than the fearmongering language they have been forced to use by circumstances not in their control. I am pretty sure bostonterrierowner means to make his points 'catch' with alarmist language but there is something deeper in it. I also think if we listen to each other, we might actually more successfully create a world without unnecessary and abusive government that all of us could be happier with.
hoi.polloi
Administrator
 
Posts: 5058
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:24 pm

Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby Selene on Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:52 am

Reading along with the discussion and being morally and philosophically convinced that coercion-based societies are wrong, in my opinion there is a more pragmatical point to make.

To change the world to our likes is impossible, even with all the peeling off of the deceptions created and perpetrated by governments so well done on Cluesforum. Being a utopist or idealist I fear is a dead end and exactly the root cause for the idea of government; wanting to change other people, their thoughts, opinions and convictions based on wishful thinking, (self)deception and coercion.

But what you can and must stand up against is statism in the making. In that sense we, as the generation alive, do have a tiny chance.

There is one horrific example of this developing in our lifetimes, in front of our eyes and that is the European Union. It is statism to the max, the step up for the widely held fear of world government. Being able to control 500 million so diverse, so different and just because of that so historically successful people thinking they are top of the world (especially against the United States of America) and -falsely- considering themselves far more critical than other civilisations, is really the demonic dream of these EUpsychopaths.

We live in a time where we see this huge monster of statism emerging and too little people seem to care. If you (still) -foolishly- believe in political change, there's a glimmer of hope in the rise of EUscepticism with the two funny eloquent characters Nigel Farage (UK) and Beppe Grillo (Italy) but of course they are regarded and treated as clowns, namecalled racists and the like, we know all the smear campaigns by the powers ourselves, I guess. I am still enjoying their speeches and rants against the establishment, no matter if they belong to it themselves nor the almost unavoidable fact their opposition is in vain.

It's sad to see this happening in our lifetime, especially in the "Old Continent" where people seem to think they are "far more critical thinkers than those darn yanks who weep and emotionalize their main event; 9/11". Oh, the Europeans think they are "better", more critical and more aware than the US Americans.

How hard kicked in reality when "Hebdo" "happened". Seeing the so-called more awake slaves follow and cooperate with the powers in place, not being able to see the fakery even after 9/11 and September Clues, really made me sad and the realisation of the false notion of critical European thinking was another drawback in my perception of my fellow Homo "sapiens".

If "we" cannot even stop nor revolt against a forming, not yet completed statist doctrine, an EU-religion, how could "we" ever think we can change the religulous idea of statism so profoundly held even here at Cluesforum by respected members at all?

Falsely claiming credit for post World War II peace in Europe (I guess they forgot to include the poor Balkan people suffering from bombs and mass killings) their messages and Newspeak are widely accepted by the general public. Although EUscepticism is luckily still not dead, it's considered as foolish by so many people as the messages spread here. A "no planer" is regarded as "crazy" as an opponent to this EU-fascism. Or the other way around.

I would like to ask the members here in the discussion who (still?) believe in statism, governments acting on the basis of coercion and the creation of a f*cking EU army if they, not wanting to call themselves anarchists, also see the EU as a "good idea, otherwise we, barbaric (??) humans would chop off each others heads all day and the continent will fall into deep despair".

So even if you still believe governments and statism is "the best option" :blink: , do you also agree that this monstruous entity should rule?

This guy at least claims he doesn't, no matter what he really thinks or if he's just "controlled opposition" or as misleading others (after all he's a politician), he still is fun to watch and his well-argumented eloquent attacks on the EU powers are a joy to follow:


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gm9q8uabTs

full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqovTGjYjM4

full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFXSj5WofYA

Selene

Anarchism is founded on the observation that since few men are wise enough to rule themselves, even fewer are wise enough to rule others
Edward Abbey (1990)
Selene
Banned
 
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:59 pm

Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby bostonterrierowner on Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:45 am

Maat wrote:Why can’t you answer my questions, BTO? Why do you feel the need to create straw man fallacies like imaginary bogeymen in some post-apocalyptic fantasy to justify/rationalize government violence?



What questions exactly Maat ? I am not trying to dodge anything let alone resort to straw man arguments .

I was 12 when "communist" regime in Poland gave way to "capitalism" and "freedom" and got a taste of abruptly weakening state power. It was nothing compared to what happened in Russia or what my friend from Sarajevo went through when Yugoslavia fell appart and the war started there but the message was clear.

I also have some autobiographical stories to tell.

I know from my Bosniac-Serbian friend's personal anecdotes what supposedly peaceful, helpful, civilized and community oriented neighbors are capable of doing when the state power collapses around them. It was pure beast-like side of human nature fueled by fear, sense of impunity, greed and irrational prejudices unleashed immediately when "right" circumstances came to being.

Regardless of a real cause of this conflict and who provoked and manipulated people over there their dark side sprung to light quite naturally. Do you think it would be different elsewhere ?
bostonterrierowner
Member
 
Posts: 849
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 10:01 pm

Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby Flabbergasted on Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:55 pm

Maat wrote:To believe such horrors are either required or justified is to ignore human nature, historical facts, and our proven abilities to create non-aggressive social order for survival, harmony and defense.

Now, that´s a mixed bag. Our ability to create a non-aggressive social order is well documented, although the best examples have certainly been anything but anarchic and agnostic. But to say that BTO´s position is only tenable if one ignores human nature and historical fact is turning things on their head!
Much of the disagreement in this thread stems from the lack of a consensus about what "civilization", "society", "hierarchy", "state" and "government" are and what purpose they [should] serve.
The daydreaming stems from a mix of beautiful idealism and ugly historical materialism.

The reformer is always right about what's wrong. However, he's often wrong about what is right.
G. K. Chesterton
Flabbergasted
Member
 
Posts: 768
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:19 am

Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby brianv on Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:24 pm

Flabbergasted wrote:
Maat wrote:To believe such horrors are either required or justified is to ignore human nature, historical facts, and our proven abilities to create non-aggressive social order for survival, harmony and defense.

Now, that´s a mixed bag. Our ability to create a non-aggressive social order is well documented, although the best examples have certainly been anything but anarchic and agnostic. But to say that BTO´s position is only tenable if one ignores human nature and historical fact is turning things on their head!
Much of the disagreement in this thread stems from the lack of a consensus about what "civilization", "society", "hierarchy", "state" and "government" are and what purpose they [should] serve.
The daydreaming stems from a mix of beautiful idealism and ugly historical materialism.

The reformer is always right about what's wrong. However, he's often wrong about what is right.
G. K. Chesterton


Applauds. You have a very sharp mind Flabbergasted, and it's a pleasure reading your posts.

Hierarchies - now there's a thing.
brianv
Member
 
Posts: 3959
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:19 pm

Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby Maat on Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:17 pm

bostonterrierowner wrote:
Maat wrote:Why can’t you answer my questions, BTO? Why do you feel the need to create straw man fallacies like imaginary bogeymen in some post-apocalyptic fantasy to justify/rationalize government violence?

What questions exactly Maat ? I am not trying to dodge anything let alone resort to straw man arguments .

I was 12 when "communist" regime in Poland gave way to "capitalism" and "freedom" and got a taste of abruptly weakening state power. It was nothing compared to what happened in Russia or what my friend from Sarajevo went through when Yugoslavia fell appart and the war started there but the message was clear.

I also have some autobiographical stories to tell.

I know from my Bosniac-Serbian friend's personal anecdotes what supposedly peaceful, helpful, civilized and community oriented neighbors are capable of doing when the state power collapses around them. It was pure beast-like side of human nature fueled by fear, sense of impunity, greed and irrational prejudices unleashed immediately when "right" circumstances came to being.

Regardless of a real cause of this conflict and who provoked and manipulated people over there their dark side sprung to light quite naturally. Do you think it would be different elsewhere ?

Dear Bostonterrierowner,

I was asking what you meant by barter being a “myth” and why you think “sophisticated trade” needs to lead to “highly developed social constructs” — to clarify your definitions etc. (as Hoi also asked).

But you done messed with my pony, man! :P

I apologize for my challenging style, I know I’m not as lucid or diplomatic as Hoi or Flabbergasted at framing concepts (I’m crap at debates), but I really am trying to get to the reasons behind why some people can’t imagine a socially viable system working without enforced (government) control.

I’m not an “idealist” or “dreamer” either. There will always be bad people in any society (always attracted to power) — but I also understand what causes the kind of chaos and violent behavior of people conditioned to and traumatized by oppressive regimes when they break-down (as I’ve repeatedly said). The immediate aftermath of such vile conflicts as the Bosnian-Serbian wars is never the “right” circumstances (no social framework) when people are still venting generations of suppressed rage, is it?

That many abused become abusers is also well-known. I just don’t think it helps to assume or confuse such results (symptoms) with being the cause itself or representative of all humanity in any circumstances — it’s a vicious cycle of learned/induced behavior in our so-called “civilized” world.

How we break through to break that cycle is the real challenge, is it not?

The 6 Nations Iroquois League's sophisticated constitution — “The Great Law of Peace” — was created to stop the constant wars from blood feuds between the clans (referred to as their “Dark Times”). If they could do it in a warrior society, why can’t we?
Maat
Member
 
Posts: 1422
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:14 am

Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby Observer on Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:32 pm

Question: Is it possible, to opt-out of the forced allegience-to-government called citizenship when traveling from place to place?

Here is this guy, who claims he opted-out by simply printing his own Passport, which sounds too good to be true but I love this idea!
http://www.worldservice.org/docpass.html

Here are, he claims, over 400 jpegs by people who entered government-controlled-places WITHOUT a government-slave-document.
http://www.worldservice.org/visas.html

Question: Is it possible, to opt-out of the forced allegience-to-government called citizenship, even in your current place of residence?

Here is this jpeg, which supposedly shows "Wayne Stump" admitting to "Dick Godbehere" (yes, suspicious, but) I love this idea too!
http://www.i.imgur.com/h2cYV4V.jpg

"It has come to my attention that numerous individuals in our state have rescinded all of their contracts with the United States federal government, the State of Arizona, and each of its political subdivisions, establishing themselves as freemen under the organic national Constitution of the Republic of the United States of America. Consequently, they may be driving without auto registration, driver's license, or any other evidence of contract.

"Because many law enforcement personnel may be unaware of the contractual nature of auto registration and driver's licenses, it is conceivable that this situation may lead to confrontation between these individuals and law enforcement personnel.

"I urge you to inform yourself and your personnel about this matter as soon as possible. If you would like to be briefed by someone knowledgeable on this subject, please contact me.

"In the meantime, inasmuch as this procedure is entirely appropriate when properly carried out, I would like to be personally notified of every such instance of confrontation in order that the persons involved and the public officials involved may be apprised of the correct procedure and the appropriateness of their actions on the part of each concerned.

"My office phone is (602) 255-5261 and I am requesting to be notified of the names and incidents along with addresses and phone numbers of participants of any such confrontations arising from the exercise of a person's freeman status in order to evaluate the outcome of properly rescinded contracts.

http://www.cyberclass.net/stumpletters.htm

I imagine one "proper" way to rescind the "contract of being a citizen of some government" is to somehow "officially" give notice that any "contracts" signed by you (or by your mother, when you were freshly born) were signed under coercion and that you thus rescind all such patently illegal contracts and all of the "benefits" which the citizenship supposedly offered.

Perhaps these are two easily-disprovable characters, planted to be checked-up-on but then thrown away in disgust, but REGARDLESS of whether the above characters/stories are true or false, these 2 ideas (traveling freely without assuming a government passport must be shown, and rescinding all contracts with the government without assuming it is impossible) are IDEAS which I love, and I will probably try these ACTIONS someday. :)
Observer
Banned
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:47 am
Location: Interwebs

Re: What is Government? What is Anarchy?

Unread postby edgewaters on Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:33 pm

Observer wrote:Power corrupts absolutely. Correct?

So nobody can be allowed to have power over others. Ever.


And who enforces this rule? :lol:
edgewaters
Member
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:49 am

PreviousNext

Return to General World Affairs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest