THE DERAILING ROOM

A place to relax and socialize - to muse, think aloud and suggest

Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread postby Flabbergasted on Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:47 pm

jumpy64 wrote:
I'd be grateful if you or anybody else could do this.

That´s a very big question you´re asking! I have very little affinity with the "spiritual economy" of Judaism, but to be objective and fair, I will come to Steve´s rescue (and save him a month´s work) by providing this link to a chapter on Judaism from Huston Smith´s book "The World´s Religions":
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6199nfv3ps6x7 ... m.pdf?dl=0

I am linking to it for the sake of information, not as an endorsement. It poses that the Jews´ most significant contribution to humanity is the discovery of meaning in existence. It is as positive a look on Judaism as one could reasonably demand.
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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread postby omaxsteve on Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:51 pm

jumpy64 wrote:
The only way you can both be right is if we split Jews into two isolated groups: Organized Jewry and Unorganized Jewry. The former occupy 50-80% of all visible key positions of influence in the world. The latter unthinkingly give them a good name.


I agree with you, Flabbergasted, and I want to thank you for you comment.

As for what Omaxsteve writes, of course there are decent people in all ethnic groups, and you and your family and friends may very well be among them. And yes, I just wanted to identify the ethnic group to which the "hoaxers" might belong to, and you don't seem to contest the possibility that I'm right.

I just wanted to point out something: usually a people's religion represent its highest moral standards, don't you agree? Of course most people can't conform to these moral standards. And so, to use the example you've given, in Italy the moral standards are given by Christianity as expressed in the Gospels: love your neighbor as yourself, love even your enemies, turn the other cheek and so on. This is what we've been taught, and what we measure our moral value against. And then we have Mafia, which is the opposite of those moral standards, or it's at best a heavy degradation of them.

So if in a nation which refers to the Gospels for its moral standards we can have Mafia, I wonder what we can have in an ethnic group whose religious texts, which should establish its moral standards, preach racial superiority in the most vicious forms, to the extent of saying that the best members of the other races "deserve to be killed" and can and must be wronged in any possible way.

It seems to me that Christians are not taught to discriminate others but just the opposite, although we don't always manage to live up to what we're taught, while this other ethnic group is taught just that: discriminate and favor your own people at any cost to survive, prosper and rule the world.

But I'm sure that even in this group there are people who feel that the negative things their religion preaches are wrong, so if you are one of them, please suggest to me other colors with which to paint your people. Tell me how you distance yourself from the negative things you've been taught, if you think they're negative. And if in your religion (because that's how you define it) there are other, positive precepts you abide by, please let me know what they are. I'm open and I want to learn to appreciate what's good in everyone.

I believe we're all human beings, and the differences between us are given mainly by different conditionings, but if I see a conditioning that I consider bad, dangerous and damaging for humanity, I feel entitled to express my opinion, as I have done here.

So please, instead of generically talking about "prejudices", let me know what are the good principles of the religion we're talking about, and show me how they are applied by its members, or even only by yourself.

I'd be grateful if you or anybody else could do this.


In answer to the question posed by Jumpy: While I am not in any way religious , or orthodox, I did attend a private Jewish day school from Grade one to seven. While I was far from the most attentive student I do not remember any of our Torah (bible) studies referring to "the best members of other races deserving to be killed" not to any religious text citing to "discriminate and favour your own people at any cost to survive prosper and rule the world" My memory is of religious text which went on and on in detail how to worship god, by living your life according to "his" rules. Resting on the Sabbath, eating certain foods, praying three times a day, etc. The most memorable portion of the old testament was of course the ten commandments.

If it is your impression, Jumpy, that the youth among the Jewish population are being taught to hate other ethnic groups, and that there is some sort of negative conditioning accorded to all Jewish born children, I believe that you are either be delusional, or badly misinformed. Having lived among Jews for the majority of my life, I can tell you that just as in any other ethnic group, there are both; good and bad - generous and greedy -honest and deceptive - kind and mean, people. As far as the "good" principles of the religion, I was taught to honour and respect my parents and my elders, to do unto others as I would have them do unto me, not to be jealous of what others had, but most importantly I was taught that to be truly happy in life you had to be able to look at yourself in the mirror and be proud of who you see. In other words taking advantage of other people, cheating, stealing, etc. while perhaps bringing some giving short term gain, would result in a lifetime of regret. Another important lesson that was instilled in me from a very young age was NOT to pre-judge people because of their ethnicity, background, religion, skin color etc, but instead to judge each person only by their own actions.

As I have aged I have come to realize that most if not all religions, are based on some sort of faith in an "almighty" or super natural being that can never be proven to exist. I have been "turned off" of religion because I find it to be a "money grab" and also very divisive. Too many people have been killed , and too many wars have been fought in the name of religion.

In conclusion, Jumpy, if it makes you feel good to hold the Jews as a scapegoat for everything wrong in the world, you are entitled to your opinion. What I find ironic about that position is that it seems to be a very similar strategy to that used by the "hoaxsters" e.g. painting Muslims as terrorists. or previously painting communists as evil doers that would have "nuked" the west if only the west did not have a nuclear response capability.

I appreciate your efforts to "out" the perpetrators of all the media fakery and hoaxes, but whether they are Jews, Christians , or Muslims, Hindu, or atheists is largely , in my opinion, irrelevant.

@Flabbergasted. I am not sure that I needed to be "defended" but thanks anyway. I will definitely read the article you linked to when I have the chance. AS for splitting the Jews into two distinct groups, I believe that there are much more than two distinct groups within the Jewish community. There are ultra orthodox hassidics, there are Ashkenazi Jews, there are Sephardic Jews, there are conservative Jews, and many other distinctive groups that all have Jewish heritage. As for their being organized, and unorganized Jewish groups I am not personally aware of the existence of this type of "organization" you are referring to. As for Jews holding 50 to 80% of all the visible key positions of influence, you may be right but I am not sure that this is factual ( how did you arrive at this percentage? which positions are defined as "key positions of influence? are you talking of the world as a whole or just North America?). Even if were factual it is, in my opinion, largely irrelevant. I am fairly certain that there are a disproportionate number of Jews in positions of influence and power, as well as there are a disproportionate number of Jews in academia, medicine, law, finance, accounting, etc. I believe that is primarily due to the importance that Jewish parents place on education. As a group I believe that there is a disproportionate percentage of Jews (compared to other religious group) that have attended college, university and post graduate studies.

regards,

Steve O.
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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread postby jumpy64 on Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:12 pm

Thank you, Flabbergasted, I will look at the text, as soon as I manage to download it (I don't have a dropbox account yet). But maybe it would be good if Steve, like other people here who follow his religion, did his homework anyway, because since he resented my analysis he probably wants to distance himself from certain "controversial" aspects that are taught in his spiritual texts of reference. I'd be very happy if he could do that, contributing to shattering what he considers unjustified prejudices (as in fact he just did while I was writing my post, so I haven't read it yet, but I will right away).

You seem to imply it would be more difficult for him. Why? Could it be because people born and raised in Western countries, religious or not, are at least supposed to live by principles similar to those contained in the Gospels (in fact, even atheists in the West are taught and encouraged to respect all human - and often even non human - beings, to make no distinctions between people of different ethnic origins, to be fair towards everybody, and to tell the truth), while to proclaim and live by these same standards, which are normal for us, adherents of his religion would have to go against what they're taught in their sacred texts?

I think the question I'm raising is very relevant to what we're trying to do here, because in this forum we often criticize harshly and go against a small group of people who, whoever they are, control the overwhelming majority of humanity by lying to us, deceiving us and disrespecting us as if we were not fellow human beings but lesser creatures to use and exploit at will.

Western people are taught to believe that this is wrong, so even if there must be people of all ethnic groups in the controlling elite, of course, at least our "western" oppressors can't brag openly about what they're doing because they know it would be considered extremely wrong in our culture (actually also in almost all other cultures too).

But what happens if we discover that there is one ethnic group that preaches openly (at least to its members) even in their scriptures, that lying, deceiving, exploiting and even killing is wrong only if you do it to your people, but you can and often must do it to every other ethnic group? And what happens if we discover also that this same small ethnic minority disproportionately occupies, quoting Flabbergasted's estimate, "50-80% of all visible key positions of influence in the world"?

Aren't we allowed at least to point out this fact, and maybe even to question the possibility that it's only a coincidence?

Apparently not, at least in the mainstream world. But I think we should do it here, if we're trying to understand what's really happening in the world, shouldn't we? Don't you think it could help us discover at least one of the factors that may motivate those we call "the perpetrators"?
Last edited by jumpy64 on Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread postby jumpy64 on Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:33 pm

I want to thank you, Steve, for sharing your experience. I don't want to doubt anything you say, but from it I gather that you have never read the Talmud. So if you did now, maybe you would understand better what I'm talking about.

At this point it would be interesting if somebody here, who shares your religious background, has been taught using the Talmud, in addition to the Torah. There should be, since it's one of the most widely read Jewish texts. Maybe it's taught only to adults? I don't know, I'm just asking. I wouldn't want to add another division in groups here,but maybe there are people who follow the Torah and others who follow the Talmud, I don't know. It seems to me that the latter are the ones in power, also judging by their public declarations. There are so many of them, by the way, and maybe you could read them too, if you want.

I have formed my opinions on certain things, as you can gather also from my previous post, but an open discussion like the one we're having here can help me (and maybe others too) to refine them.
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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread postby Flabbergasted on Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:53 pm

omaxsteve wrote:As for Jews holding 50 to 80% of all the visible key positions of influence, you may be right but I am not sure that this is factual ( how did you arrive at this percentage? which positions are defined as "key positions of influence? are you talking of the world as a whole or just North America?).

I knew you would call my attention to this loose estimate, and you are right: it is not possible to calculate objectively, both because "key position" is an ill-defined concept and because we can´t say for sure whether someone is Jewish unless stated publicly.
My estimate, loose as it is, is based on decades of observation and study, the longstanding cultural or strategic tactic of "underreporting of Jewishness" among influential Jews, website analyses like "who controls banking/big media/social engineering, etc" (the hotlinks no longer work) and books like "Jews in Russia and in the USSR", by Diky. Here is a link to the latter: https://www.dropbox.com/s/owz57p1gav8fs ... a.pdf?dl=0
Take a look at the lists beginning on page 313.

omaxsteve wrote:Even if were factual it is, in my opinion, largely irrelevant.

Think again, Steve.
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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread postby Flabbergasted on Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:05 pm

jumpy64 wrote:Thank you, Flabbergasted, I will look at the text, as soon as I manage to download it (I don't have a dropbox account yet).

I don´t think you need an account to download or read online. You may be prompted to open one, but I believe you can just decline and proceed.

jumpy64 wrote:You seem to imply it would be more difficult for him. Why?

No, all I wanted to say was that such a question ("what are the good principles of the religion we're talking about?") is very hard work for any person, even a committed student of philosophy and religion, to answer in writing. I figured sharing Smith´s text would save sweat and serve as a subsidy for the second round in the debate (rather than just fleshing out the same positions and speculations).
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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread postby jumpy64 on Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:26 pm

Flabbergasted wrote:
I figured sharing Smith´s text would save sweat and serve as a subsidy for the second round in the debate (rather than just fleshing out the same positions and speculations).


You're probably right, but what you think this "second round" should focus on? I look forward to your suggestions.
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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread postby omaxsteve on Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:55 pm

jumpy64 wrote:I want to thank you, Steve, for sharing your experience. I don't want to doubt anything you say, but from it I gather that you have never read the Talmud. So if you did now, maybe you would understand better what I'm talking about.

At this point it would be interesting if somebody here, who shares your religious background, has been taught using the Talmud, in addition to the Torah. There should be, since it's one of the most widely read Jewish texts. Maybe it's taught only to adults? I don't know, I'm just asking. I wouldn't want to add another division in groups here,but maybe there are people who follow the Torah and others who follow the Talmud, I don't know. It seems to me that the latter are the ones in power, also judging by their public declarations. There are so many of them, by the way, and maybe you could read them too, if you want.

I have formed my opinions on certain things, as you can gather also from my previous post, but an open discussion like the one we're having here can help me (and maybe others too) to refine them.



Im all for open discussion. "One of the most widely read Jewish texts"? Where do you get that information from? Do you understand the difference between causation and correlation? the fact that "some" jews are in influential positions and 'some" people in influential positions participate in hoaxes does not mean that the fact that they are "jewish" is what makes them to become "power hungry" or "bad" people. That is why I say that their religion is irrelevant, it is only their actions as individuals that they should be held accountable for. Here is an interesting, albeit long. article written by a Muslim ....
By: Dr Farrukh Saleem

The writer is the Pakistani Executive Director of the Center for Research and Security Studies, a think tank established in 2007, and an Islamabad-based freelance columnist.
Why are Jews so powerful?

There are only 14 million Jews in the world; seven million in the Americas , five million in Asia, two million in Europe and 100,000 in
Africa. For every single Jew in the world there are
100 Muslims.

Yet, Jews are more than a hundred times more powerful
than all the Muslims put together.
Ever wondered why?

Jesus of Nazareth was Jewish.
Albert Einstein, the most influential scientist of all time and
TIME magazine's 'Person of the Century', was a Jew.

Sigmund Freud, the father of psychoanalysis was a Jew.
So were Karl Marx, Paul Samuelson and Milton Friedman.

Here are a few other Jews whose intellectual output
has enriched the whole humanity:

Benjamin Rubin gave humanity the vaccinating needle.
Jonas Salk developed the first polio vaccine.
Albert Sabin developed the improved live polio vaccine.
Gertrude Elion gave us a leukemia fighting drug.
Baruch Blumberg developed the vaccination for Hepatitis B.

Paul Ehrlich discovered a treatment for syphilis.
Elie Metchnikoff won a Nobel Prize in infectious diseases.
Bernard Katz won a Nobel Prize in neuromuscular transmission.
Andrew Schally won a Nobel in endocrinology.
Aaron Beck founded Cognitive Therapy.

Gregory Pincus developed the first oral contraceptive pill.
George Wald won a Nobel for our understanding of the human eye.
Stanley Cohen won a Nobel in embryology.
Willem Kolff came up with the kidney dialysis machine.

Over the past 105 years, 14 million Jews have won 15-dozen Nobel Prizes while only three Nobel Prizes have been won by 1.4 billion
Muslims (other than Peace Prizes).
Why are Jews so powerful?
Stanley Mezor invented the first micro-processing chip.
Leo Szilard developed the first nuclear chain reactor;
Peter Schultz, optical fibre cable;
Charles Adler, traffic lights;
Benno Strauss, Stainless steel;
Isador Kisee, sound movies;
Emile Berliner, telephone microphone;
Charles Ginsburg, videotape recorder.

Famous financiers in the business world who belong to Jewish faith include
Ralph Lauren (Polo),
Levis Strauss (Levi's Jeans),
Howard Schultz (Starbuck's) ,
Sergey Brin (Google),
Michael Dell (Dell Computers),
Larry Ellison (Oracle),
Donna Karan (DKNY),
Irv Robbins (Baskins & Robbins) and
Bill Rosenberg (Dunkin Donuts).

Richard Levin, President of Yale University, is a Jew. So are Henry Kissinger (American secretary of state), Alan Greenspan (Fed chairman under Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush), Joseph Lieberman (US Senator), Madeleine Albright (American secretary of state), Casper
Weinberger (American secretary of defense), Maxim Litvinov ( USSR foreign Minister), David Marshal ( Singapore 's first chief minister), Issac Isaacs (governor-general of Australia ), Benjamin
Disraeli (British statesman and author), Yevgeny Primakov (Russian PM), Barry Goldwater (US Senator), Jorge Sampaio (president of Portugal ), John Deutsch (CIA director), Herb Gray (Canadian deputy PM), Pierre Mendes (French PM), Michael Howard (British home
secretary), Bruno Kreisky (chancellor of Austria ) and Robert Rubin (American secretary of treasury).

In the media, famous Jews include Wolf Blitzer (CNN), Barbara Walters (ABC News), Eugene Meyer (Washington Post), Henry Grunwald
(editor-in-chief Time), Katherine Graham (publisher of The Washington Post), Joseph Lelyveld (Executive editor, The New York Times), and Max Frankel (New York Times).

The most beneficent philanthropist in the history of the world is George Soros, a Jew, who has so far donated a colossal $4 billion most of which has gone as aid to scientists and universities around the world.

Second to George Soros is Walter Annenberg, another Jew, who has built a hundred libraries by donating an estimated $2 billion.

At the Olympics, Mark Spitz set a record of sorts by winning seven gold medals; Lenny Krayzelburg is a three-time Olympic gold medalist.
Spitz, Krayzelburg and Boris Becker (Tennis) are all Jewish.

Did you know that Harrison Ford, George Burns, Tony Curtis, Charles Bronson, Sandra Bullock, Billy Crystal, Woody Allen, Paul Newman,
Peter Sellers, Dustin Hoffman, Michael Douglas, Ben Kingsley, Kirk Douglas, Goldie Hawn, Cary Grant, William Shatner, Jerry Lewis and
Peter Falk are all Jewish?

As a matter of fact, Hollywood itself was founded by a Jew. Among directors and producers, Steven Spielberg, Mel Brooks, Oliver Stone,
Aaron Spelling ( Beverly Hills 90210), Neil Simon (The Odd Couple), Andrew Vaina (Rambo 1/2/3), Michael Man (Starsky andHutch), Milos
Forman (One flew over the Cuckoo's Nest), Douglas Fairbanks (The Thief of Baghdad ) and Ivan Reitman (Ghostbusters) are all Jewish.

So, why are Jews so powerful?
Answer : EDUCATION
Why are Muslims so powerless?

There are an estimated 1,476,233,470 Muslims on the face of the planet: one billion in Asia, 400 million in Africa, 44 million in Europe and six million in the Americas . Every fifth human being is a Muslim; for every single Hindu there are two Muslims, for every Buddhist there are two Muslims and for every Jew there are one hundred Muslims.

Ever wondered why Muslims are so powerless?
Here is why: There are 57 member-countries of the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC), and all of them put together have around
500 universities; one university for every three million Muslims. The United States has 5,758 universities and India has 8,407.

In 2004, Shanghai Jiao Tong University compiled an 'Academic Ranking of World Universities' , and intriguingly, not one university
from Muslim-majority states was in the top-500.

As per data collected by the UNDP, literacy in the Christian world stands at nearly 90 per cent and 15 Christian-majority states have a literacy rate of 100 per cent.

A Muslim-majority state, as a sharp contrast, has an average literacy rate of around 40 per cent and there is no Muslim-majority state with
a literacy rate of 100 per cent.

Some 98 per cent of the 'literates' in the Christian world had completed primary school, while less than 50 per cent of the 'literates' in the Muslim world did the same.

Around 40 per cent of the 'literates' in the Christian world attended university while no more than two per cent of the 'literates' in the Muslim world did the same.

Muslim-majority countries have 230 scientists per one million Muslims. The US has 4,000 scientists per million and Japan has 5,000 per million.
In the entire Arab world, the total number of full-time researchers is 35,000 and there are only 50 technicians per one million Arabs. (in the Christian world there are up to 1,000 technicians per one million).

Furthermore, the Muslim world spends 0.2 per cent of its GDP on research and development, while the Christian world spends around five per cent of its GDP.

Conclusion: The Muslim world lacks the capacity to produce knowledge!

Daily newspapers per 1,000 people and number of book titles per million are two indicators of whether knowledge is being diffused in a society.

In Pakistan, there are 23 daily newspapers per 1,000 Pakistanis while the same ratio in Singapore is 360. In the UK , the number of book
titles per million stands at 2,000 while the same in Egypt is 20.

Conclusion: The Muslim world is failing to diffuse knowledge.

Exports of high technology products as a percentage of total exports are an important indicator of knowledge application. Pakistan 's export of high technology products as a percentage of total exports stands at one per cent. The same for Saudi Arabia is 0.3 per cent; Kuwait, Morocco, and Algeria are all at 0.3 per cent, while Singapore is at 58 per cent.

Conclusion: The Muslim world is failing to apply knowledge.

Why are Muslims powerless?

.....Because we aren't producing knowledge,
.....Because we aren't diffusing knowledge.,
.....Because we aren't applying knowledge.

And, the future belongs to knowledge-based societies.

Interestingly, the combined annual GDP of 57 OIC-countries is under $2 trillion.
America, just by herself, produces goods and services worth $12 trillion;
China $8 trillion,
Japan $3.8 trillion and
Germany $2.4 trillion (purchasing power parity basis).

Oil rich Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait and Qatar collectively produce goods and services (mostly oil) worth $500 billion;
Spain alone produces goods and services worth over $1 trillion,
Catholic Poland $489 billion and
Buddhist Thailand $545 billion.

..... (Muslim GDP as a percentage of world GDP is fast declining).
So, why are Muslims so powerless?
Answer: Lack of education.

All we do is shout to Allah the whole day !!! and blame everyone else for our multiple failures!!!!!
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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread postby jumpy64 on Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:40 pm

No, Steve, I strongly disagree with you on this. On a social, collective level, it can't all boil down to the actions of "individuals". That's one of the myths that's destroying our society. A team effort is required even to win a football match, for example. It's only in a strong, compact and united team that the talents of individuals can shine. And this is especially true if you are a minority: you have to stick together, and your ethnic group is very good at this, regardless of the kind of tactics it employs. Otherwise, why would you have so many influential organizations to protect Israeli interests all over the world and especially in the US?

It's a fact: your people have a strong ethnic identity and protect it extremely well. I see them even applying almost military tactics in a context of an "us against them","divide and conquer" mentality. I might be mistaken, but I don't think so. After all, any good general knows that you must try and divide your enemy, especially if it far outnumbers you. That, I believe, it's the role of certain "activists", for example, in spreading "multiculturalism" only in certain parts of the world. But I've already said this, and I don't want to repeat mysef more than I have already, as Flabbergasted pointed out.

After all, mine is not even a criticism in this context. Other "teams" should learn from yours about "team effort" and play a much better game.

Therefore, if you don't see this, I don't know what else to say. You keep downplaying the role of your people's strong collective identity, exalting the role of "individuals" instead. It's against all odds that so many individuals of a very small minority occupy most positions of power just by chance, or because of a "superior intellect" - as our friend Miles Mathis would say :) - or of other similarly unconvincing explanations.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that.
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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread postby fbenario on Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:16 am

Jumpy, why are you leaving all of us in the dark? You've made repeated reference to Talmud provisions that apparently can be summarized as anti-Goyim 'kill 'em all' commands, but apparently can't be bothered to provide them for us to read.

Why are you leaving it to each of us to do the research to find these provisions? You've failed at the most basic posting etiquette and rules here, and act as if you have no familiarity with the forum at all.

Please immediately set forth quoted material from the Talmud so all of us can familiarize themselves with what you're going on about.
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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread postby jumpy64 on Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:08 am

I'm sorry, fbenario, I certainly don't mean to be rude, but here we're talking about things for which you can be criminally persecuted in several countries, including Italy, were even websites administrators have been arrested and their websites have been closed for "incitement to hatred" and other similar "thought crimes". In fact, as I said in my first post on this thread, even the administrators of this forum have expressed discomfort about this topic in posts I remember reading here.

And if I'm being even blatantly overcautious here, it's to make the censorship that exists strikingly more evident, because I consider it a very telling anomaly in itself. It speaks more eloquently, I believe, than any more specific words I could use.

So, yes you'll have to do your research, sorry. It's really not difficult, especially for skilled researchers like us. But if you need a little help here, and you want to go to the crux of the matter directly, you can start by googling "talmudic quotes against gentiles" (even without quotations marks) and see where it takes you.

Or if you want a more general context, or to verify the quotes, you can read about the central importance of the Babylonian Talmud on Wikipedia, and even search the Talmud online.
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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread postby pov603 on Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:41 am

You say '...to verify the quotes...' but to which ones in particular are you drawing our attention?
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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread postby jumpy64 on Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:02 am

Since somebody asked, I've decided that now and them, whenever I find the time, I'll post other suggestions for Google searches.

Like this one: What zionist media say about gentiles (without quotations marks; from now on I'll put them only where really needed for more effective searching)

Or I can even link to documents, but only those written by influential people belonging to the ethnic group in question. I want to be fair and let them speak for themselves.

In fact, I just found a gem by Steven Steinlight, former National Affairs Director at the American Jewish Committee (AJC) writing here as Senior Policy Analyst at the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) in Washington, titled "The Jewish Stake in America's Changing Demography: Reconsidering a Misguided Immigration Policy". You can find it at http://cis.org/articles/2001/back1301.html

It's very interesting to read it all to understand a certain mindset, but just to prove my point to those who haven't enough time I'll suggest you make a search inside the text for the exact words divide and conquer. They're actually there! And you'll find them in a very telling context.

I could rest my case right there, but I'll probably give you more examples, as promised.
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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread postby pov603 on Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:13 am

If that is your stance, you may as well have this quoted too:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/robert-hand/divide-conquer-the-model-was-irelands-1692-ulster-plantation/387496439352

'Divide & Conquer', the model was Ireland's, 1692, Ulster Plantation
20 April 2010 at 05:15
It is no surprise that the Israelis should be using the tactic of "divide and conquer", the cornerstone policy of an empire that dominated virtually every continent on the globe save South America. The Jewish population of British-controlled Palestine was, after all, victim to exactly the same kind of ethnic manipulation that the Israeli government is presently attempting in Northern Iraq.

Following the absorption of the Ottoman Empire after World War I, the British set about shoring up their rule by the tried and true strategy of pitting ethnic group against ethnic group, tribe against tribe, and religion against religion. When British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour issued his famous 1917 Declaration guaranteeing a "homeland" for the Jewish people in Palestine, he was less concerned with righting a two thousand year old wrong than creating divisions that would serve growing British interests in the Middle East.

Sir Ronald Storrs, the first Governor of Jerusalem, certainly had no illusions about what a "Jewish homeland" in Palestine meant for the British Empire: "It will form for England," he said, "a little loyal Jewish Ulster in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism." Storrs' analogy was no accident.

Ireland was where the English invented the tactic of divide and conquer, and where the devastating effectiveness of using foreign settlers to drive a wedge between the colonial rulers and the colonized made it a template for worldwide imperial rule.


Divide and Conquer Revisited
Former Israeli Prime Ministers Ariel Sharon and Menachem Begin normally take credit for creating the "facts on the ground" policies that have poured more than 420,000 settlers into the Occupied Territories.

But they were simply copying Charles I, the English King, who in 1609 forcibly removed the O'Neill and O'Donnell clans from the north of Ireland, moved in 20,000 English and Scottish Protestants, and founded the Plantation of Ulster.

The "removal" was never really meant to cleanse Ulster of the Irish. Native labor was essential to the Plantation's success and within 15 years more than 4,000 native Irish tenants and their families were back in Ulster. But they lived in a land divided into religious castes, with the Protestant invaders on top and the Catholic natives on the bottom.

Protestants were awarded the "Ulster privilege" which gave them special access to land and lower rents, and also served to divide them from the native Catholics. The "Ulster Privilege" is not dissimilar to the kind of "privilege" Israeli settlers enjoy in the Territories today, where their mortgages are cheap, their taxes lower and their education subsidized.

The Protestant privileges were a constant sore point with the native Irish; although in fact, most Protestants were little better off than their Catholic neighbors. Rents were uniformly onerous, regardless of religion.

Indeed, there were numerous cases where Protestants and Catholics united to protest exorbitant rents, but in virtually every case, the authorities successfully used religion and privilege to split such alliances. The Orange Order, the organization most responsible for sectarian politics in the North today, was originally formed in 1795 to break a Catholic-Protestant rent strike.


Ireland as Imperial Laboratory
The parallels between Israel and Ireland are almost eerie, unless one remembers that the latter was the laboratory for British colonialism.
As in Ulster, Israeli settlers in the Occupied Territories have special privileges that divide them from Palestinians (and other Israelis as well).
As in Ireland, Israeli settlers rely on the military to protect them from the "natives."
As in Northern Ireland, there are political organizations, like the National Religious Party and the Moledet Party, which whip up sectarian hatred, and keep the population divided.

The latter two parties both advocate the forcible transfer of all Arabs Palestinians and Israelis alike to Jordan and Egypt

Prior to the Ulster experiment, the English had tried any number of schemes to tame the restive Irish and build a wall between conquerors and conquered. One set of laws, the 1367 Statutes of Kilkenny, forbade "gossiping" with the natives. All of them failed. Then the English hit on the idea of using ethnicity, religion, and privilege to construct a society with built-in divisions.


It worked like a charm
The divisions were finally codified in the Penal Laws of 1692, divisions that still play themselves out in the streets of Belfast and Londonderry. Besides denying Catholics any civil rights (and removing those rights from Protestants who intermarried with them), the Laws blocked Catholics from signing contracts, becoming lawyers, or hiring more than two apprentices. In essence, they insured that Catholics would remain poor, powerless, and locked out of the modern world.

The laws were, in the words of the great English jurist Edmund Burke,

"A machine of wide and elaborate contrivance and as well fitted for the oppression, impoverishment and degradation of a people as ever proceeded from the perverted ingenuity of man."

Once the English hit on the tactic of using ethnic and religious differences to divide a population, the conquest of Ireland became a reality. Within 250 years, that formula would be transported to India, Africa, and the Middle East.

Sometimes populations were splintered by religions, as with Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims in India. Sometimes societies were divided by tribes, as with the Ibos and Hausa in Nigeria. Sometimes, as in Ireland, foreign ethnic groups were imported and used as a buffer between the colonial authorities and the colonized. That is how large numbers of East Indians ended up in Kenya, South Africa, British Guyana, and Uganda.
South Africa's PM John Vorster is feted by Israel's PM Yitzhak Rabin and Menachem Begin and Moshe Dayan during his 1976 visit to Jerusalem
During WW2 the future South African PM John Vorster was interned as a Nazi sympathiser. Three decades later he was being feted in Jerusalem. http://tinyurl.com/92n89dSouth Africa's PM John Vorster is feted by Israel's PM Yitzhak Rabin and Menachem Begin and Moshe Dayan during his 1976 visit to Jerusalem During WW2 the future South African PM John Vorster was interned as a Nazi sympathiser. Three decades later he was being feted in Jerusalem. http://tinyurl.com/92n89d

It was "divide and conquer" that made it possible for an insignificant island in the north of Europe to rule the world. Division and chaos, tribal, religious and ethnic hatred, were the secret to empire. Guns and artillery were always in the background in case things went awry, but in fact, it rarely came to that.

It would appear the Israelis have paid close attention to English colonial policy because their policies in the Occupied Territories bear a distressing resemblance to Ireland under the Penal Laws.

The Israeli Knesset recently prevented Palestinians married to Arab Israelis from acquiring citizenship, a page lifted almost directly from the 1692 laws. Israeli human rights activist Yael Stein called the action "racist," and Knesset member Zeeva Galon said it denied "the fundamental right of Arab Israelis to start families." Even the U.S. is uncomfortable with the legislation. "The new law," said U.S. State Department spokesman Phillip Reeker, "singles out one group for different treatment than others."

Which, of course, was the whole point?


Imperial Blowback
As the penal laws impoverished the Irish, so do Israeli policies impoverish the Palestinians and keep them an underdeveloped pool of cheap labor. According to the United Nations, unemployment in the West Bank and Gaza is over 50%, and Palestinians are among the poorest people on the planet.

Any efforts by the Palestinians to build their own independent economic base are smothered by a network of walls, settler-exclusive roads and checkpoints. It is little different than British imperial policy in India, which systematically dismantled the Indian textile industry so that English cloth could clothe the sub-continent without competition.

Divide and conquer was 19th and early 20th century colonialism's single most successful tactic of domination. It was also a disaster, one which still echoes in civil wars and regional tensions across the globe. This latter lesson does not appear to be one the Israelis have paid much attention to. As a system of rule, division and privilege may work in the short run, but over time it engenders nothing but hatred. These polices, according to Lt. Gen. Moshe Yaalon, foment "terror,"adding, "In tactical decisions, we are operating contrary to our strategic interests."

The policy also creates divisions among Israelis. Empires benefit only a few, and always at the expense of the majority. While for example the Sharon government spends $1.4 billion a year holding on to the territories, 27% of Israeli children are officially designated "poor," social services have been cut, and the economy is in shambles.

By playing the Kurds against Syria and Iran, the Israelis may end up triggering a Turkish invasion of Kurdish Iraq, touching off a war that could engulf the entire region. That Israel would emerge from such a conflict unscathed is illusion.

Divide and conquer fails in the long run, but only after it inflicts stupendous damage, engendering hatreds that still convulse countries like Nigeria, India and Ireland. In the end it will fail to serve even the interests of the power that uses it. England kept Ireland divided for 800 years, but in the end, it lost.

The Israelis would do well to remember the Irish poet Patrick Pearse's eulogy over the grave of the old Fenian revolutionary, Jeremian "Rossa" O'Donovan:

"I say to my people's masters, beware. Beware of the thing that is coming. Beware of the risen people who shall take what yea would not give."


Conn Hallinan is a foreign policy analyst for Foreign Policy in Focus and a Lecturer in Journalism at the University of California, Santa Cruz.


The Model for Iraq was Ireland, 1692, Divide and Conquer as Imperial Rules
by Conn Hallinan
Global Research, Feb 20, 2007
Iraqi League - 2006-12-28

Investigative journalist Seymour Hersh's revelations that the Israeli government is encouraging Kurdish separatism in Iraq, Iran, and Syria should ring a bell for anyone who has followed the long history of English imperial ambitions.


Orange Order

"divide and conquer"
The use of this strategy was imputed to administrators of vast empires, including the Roman and British, who were charged with playing one tribe against another to maintain control of their territories with a minimal number of imperial forces. The concept of "Divide and Rule" gained prominence when India was a part of the British Empire, but was also used to account for the strategy used by the Romans to take Britain, and for the Anglo-Normans to take Ireland. It is said that the British used the strategy to gain control of the large territory of India by keeping its people divided along lines of religion, language, or caste, taking control of petty princely states in India piecemeal.

The British employed "Divide and Rule" in British India as a means of preventing an uprising against the Raj. The partition of India is often attributed to these policies.
In his historical survey Constantine's Sword, James P. Carroll writes,


"Typically, imperial powers depend on the inability of oppressed local populations to muster a unified resistance, and the most successful occupiers are skilled at exploiting the differences among the occupied. Certainly that was the story of the British Empire's success, and its legacy of nurtured local hatreds can be seen wherever the Union Flag flew, from Muslim-Hindu hatred in Pakistan and India, to Catholic-Protestant hatred in Ireland, to, yes, Jew-Arab, hatred in modern Israel. [Ancient] Rome was as good at encouraging internecine resentments among the occupied as Britain ever was."



A coin with two sides. The "Nazi-Zionist" medallion.

1.
"Nazi-Zionist" medallion was issued by the Berlin daily Der Angriff to commemorate a joint visit to Zionist Palestine by SS officer Leopold von Mildenstein and Zionist Federation official Kurt Tuchler. A series of articles on their tour, appearing under the heading "A Nazi Travels to Palestine," appeared in Der Angriff in late 1934.
"Zionism and the Third Reich,"
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n4p29_Weber.html

2.
It was a struck for Goebbels' Der Angriff newspaper and translates as "A (Nazi) travels to Palestine". It served to commemorate the occasion a Zionist supporter/sympathiser, (and assured collaborator), SS member Baron Leopold Von Mildenstein, together with his wife and Kurt Tuchler of The Zionist Federation of Germany, spent six months travelling Palestine.

At this time many German Zionists, like Tuchler, were Nazi supporters and emphatically indulged themselves in what they saw as the integrity and goodwill of NSDAP policy toward Jewish resettlement: it also furthered their political objectives. Mildenstein's favourable report was therefore sought equally by German Zionists and Nazi's in their collective efforts at proselytising the peopling of Palestine with Jewish Semites. The Journals of this visit were subsequently serialised in Der Angriff in the mid 30's. I believe Von Mildenstein also championed the promotion of Eichmann within the Resettlement Dept.

The twisted genius of Goebbels can never be underestimated.

3.
THE Medallion was struck by the Third Reich to honor the co-operation and support given by the Zionist Jewish Agency in helping to make Germany "Judenfrei". The SS concluded written Agreements with the Zionist organization to ensure that Jews in Germany or under their control were forced to emigrate, selling their assets, the proceeds of which were placed in German bank accounts which would be available to the Jewish Agency for the purchase of goods and services from Germany IF the deportee agreed to settle in Palestine.

The new immigrant to the Jewish controlled area of Palestine, and his family would be given jobs, typically on a Kibbutz, and become a farm laborer - with his tractor and farm equipment purchased from Germany (but owned by the Jewish Agency). It was a difficult choice for the Jew who hated farming and the nasty climate in Palestine - but if it meant his and his family's life, he often took it.

Accordingly, the Zionists encouraged the Nazi regime to make life as frighteningly miserable as possible for Jews under their control. The choice was Concentration Camp or Palestine (Israel). Many thousands chose Palestine. Germany rid itself of Jews and improved it's economy and Jewish Palestine ( then a Communist entity) received the colonists it desperately needed to outnumber the indigenous peoples whose land it was. Much literature exists documenting this arrangement including a book entitled "The Transfer Agreement ". In other words, Zionists strongly supported the harshest treatment of European Jews by Hitler. The Nazi regime created this Medal in honor of their collaboration in ridding Europe of Jews, while preserving their lives.


4.
The medal commemorated Baron von Mildenstein's visit to Palestine.
"... Thus, in early 1933, Baron Leopold Itz Edler von Mildenstein, a man who a few years later was to become chief of the Jewish section of the SD (the Sicherheitsdienst, or security service, the SS intelligence branch headed by Reinhard Heydrich), was invited along with his wife to tour Palestine and to write a series of articles for Goebbels's Der Angriff. And so it was that the Mildensteins, accompanied by Kurt Tuchler, a leading member of the Berlin Zionist Organisation, and his wife, visited Jewish settlements in Eretz Israel.

The highly positive articles, entitled "A Nazi Visits Palestine," were duly published, and, to mark the occasion, a special medallion cast, with a swastika on one side and a Star of David on the other."
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Re: Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on A Very Open Conspi

Unread postby jumpy64 on Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:35 am

pov603 wrote:You say '...to verify the quotes...' but to which ones in particular are you drawing our attention?


Obviously the ones you'll find by googling "Talmudic quotes against gentiles".
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