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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Postby omaxsteve on Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:28 pm

hoi.polloi wrote:
simonshack wrote:
omaxsteve wrote:As barbaric as it seems, it is only a small piece of skin that is removed and I have been present at many circumcisions and have never seen or heard of the Mohel using his mouth on the baby"s penis. There is not a single Jew, or person of any religion , that I know that would tolerate such behavior.


Now, that's comforting to hear, Omaxsteve. If that's the case, then perhaps we should open a thread titled:
"Are All Videos of Mohel's Sucking Infants' Penises Fake?"


:lol:

Exactly, Simon! It's real.

Not only that, the Mohels give their adult sexual diseases to the children by doing so, making the babies more at risk for cancer and other diseases — even death. I can't believe you would deny this, omaxsteve. You may claim to not know anyone, but try asking around in the Jewish community.


A lot of misinformation (disinformation?) being spread here. Within the Jewish population , the huge majority are secular jews who really do not observe any 'jewish" religious practices other than perhaps the holidays such as passover where they do not eat bread for 8 days , perhaps the the sons have a bar -mitzvah ceremony where they read from the Torah (not the Talmud). There are many orthodox Jews, whose level of orthodoxy ranges form observing the Sabbath, to following strictly Kosher dietary laws,, then there is a very small minority of ultra -orthodox Jews also called Hassidic Jews, The Hassidics are quite extreme, they stand out like a sore thumb, with their unusual dress, funny hats and long black coats, long beards and sideburns which are never cut or trimmed. It is the Hassidic Jews that study and live by the preachings of the Talmud. If there are any Mohel's still sucking the blood from the wounded penis they would be found in that group. Other than the ultra orthodox Hassidic jews, the rest of the Jewish population that circumcise their young will either use a swab OR a tube to suction the blood in a way that ensures there is no oral -genital contact.

I believe it is misinformed for one to equate the actions of the extremely orthodox Hassidic Jews with the common "every day" Jew. In fact , their way of life and the way they dress ensures that no one will confuse them with the "less- orthodox" Jews . The Hassidic stand out as much as would an Amish family riding a horse and buggy through the streets of a modern city.

Interestingly, you will not find any Hassidic Jews occupying the positions of power and influence that would allow them to engineer any of the hoaxes or psy-ops that have been exposed in this forum.

It is therefore , in my opinion, wrong to attempt to paint he modern secular Jews (those that control the media) with the actions of the Hassidic Jews that re trying to preserve a way of life that existed many hundreds, if not thousands, of years ago.

It is also equally wrong, in my opinion, to paint the entoire population of Jews with the actions of the handful of rich and powerful that control the media and participate in the hoaxes and psyops that are regularly exposed here

As much as I appreciate this forum for its unparalleled brilliance in exposing the rampant and despicable media fakery (yes the primarily Jewish controlled media fakery) . I must say I am disappointed (not offended) that amongst so many otherwise intelligent people here do not see the fallacy and danger in stereotyping an entire group of people based on the religion they were born into.

Lets assume for a moment that there are was an actual cell of real terrorists, all of them from one identifiable group such as Muslims, that were actually found guilty of a horrific act of terror in which they killed thousands of innocent civilians; Would it be acceptable to label all Muslims as terrorists? Would it be okay to call it a "Muslim" conspiracy? True, in this hypothetical scenario all the terrorists were Muslims but what they have in common is that they are all terrorists. Their actions should, at least among open-minded people, NOT reflect on the majority of the Muslims who were not involved in any way shape or form with the terrorist activity.

Perhaps I am misreading this whole thread because I would think that this should be obvious.

Finally on the subject of circumcision, it is not completely black and white issue. There are some very strong arguments on the anti-circumcision side, but it is not a totally one-sided argument;

Here is a link to an article entited "the case against the case against circumcision" http://nymag.com/health/features/60146/

again an excerpt for those who are short on time:

Every year, it seems, a new study confirms that the foreskin is pretty much like the appendix or the wisdom tooth—it is an evolutionary footnote that serves no purpose other than to incubate infections. There’s no single overwhelming health reason to remove it, but there are a lot of smaller health reasons that add up. It’s not critical that any individual boy get circumcised. For the growing number of people who feel hysterical at the thought, just don’t do it. But don’t ruin it for the rest of us. It’s perfectly clear that on a grand public-health level, the more boys who get circumcised, the better it is for everyone.

Twenty years ago, this would have been a boring, obvious thing to say, like feed your baby rice cereal before bananas, or don’t smoke while pregnant. These days, in certain newly enlightened circles on the East and West Coasts, it puts you in league with Josef Mengele. Late this summer, when the New York Times reported that the U.S. Centers for Disease Control might consider promoting routine circumcision as a tool in the fight against AIDS, the vicious comments that ensued included references to mass genocide.

There’s no use arguing with the anti-circ activists, who only got through the headline of this story before hunting down my e-mail and offering to pay for me to be genitally mutilated. But for those in the nervous middle, here is my best case for why you should do it. Biologists think the foreskin plays a critical role in the womb, protecting the penis as it is growing during the third month of gestation. Outside the womb, the best guess is that it once kept the penis safe from, say, low-hanging thorny branches. Nowadays, we have pants for that.

Circumcision dates back some 6,000 years and was mostly associated with religious rituals, especially for Jews and Muslims. In the nineteenth century, moralists concocted some unfortunate theories about the connection between the foreskin and masturbation and other such degenerate impulses. The genuinely useful medical rationales came later. During the World War II campaign in North Africa, tens of thousands of American GIs fell short on their hygiene routines. Many of them came down with a host of painful and annoying infections, such as phimosis, where the foreskin gets too tight to retract over the glans. Doctors already knew about the connection to sexually transmitted diseases and began recommending routine circumcision.

In the late eighties, researchers began to suspect a relationship between circumcision and transmission of HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. One researcher wondered why certain Kenyan men who see prostitutes get infected and others don’t. The answer, it turned out, was that the ones who don’t were circumcised. Three separate trials in Uganda, Kenya, and South Africa involving over 10,000 men turned up the same finding again and again. Circumcision, it turns out, could reduce the risk of HIV transmission by at least 60 percent, which, in Africa, adds up to 3 million lives saved over the next twenty years. The governments of Uganda and Kenya recently started mass-circumcision campaigns.

These studies are not entirely relevant to the U.S. They apply only to female-to-male transmission, which is relatively rare here. But the results are so dramatic that people who work in AIDS prevention can’t ignore them. Daniel Halperin, an AIDS expert at the Harvard School of Public Health, has compared various countries, and the patterns are obvious. In a study of 28 nations, he found that low circumcision rates (fewer than 20 percent) match up with high HIV rates, and vice versa. Similar patterns are turning up in the U.S. as well. A team of researchers from the CDC and Johns Hopkins analysed records of over 26,000 heterosexual African-American men who showed up at a Baltimore clinic for HIV testing and denied any drug use or homosexual contact. Among those with known HIV exposure, the ones who did turn out to be HIV-positive were twice as likely to be uncircumcised. There’s no causal relationship here; foreskin does not cause HIV transmission. But researchers guess that foreskins are more susceptible to sores, and also have a high concentration of certain immune cells that are the main portals for HIV infection.


Regards,

Steve O.

(edited for some minor additions and typos)
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Postby Seneca on Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:49 pm

jumpy64 wrote:
Seneca wrote:Movies about Jesus Christ! For example "The Passion of the Christ ", starring a jew called Judas Iscariot. He is in 213 other movies. What do I win? B)


Well, I don't know Seneca, that one is too obvious and I think it doesn't count. Too many Jews there, so at least one had to be the bad guy :)


Oh so now you are changing the rules? Actually, all the good jews in that movie were christians ;)

What about "Once upon a time in America?". I don't remember it but it is about Jewish mobsters. It is from 1984 but was restored in 2012.
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Postby Selene on Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:06 pm

SteveO, you describe well some concerns I have with the Jewish-cultural-religious "conspiracy" that would be in plain sight, towering over all other psychopath Risk-characters playing the world like their private casino-slaughter-hoaxhouse...

In answer to jumpy, you never heard of this fellow? A "true jew/Jew/cult-reli-Jew" or not, it does not seem too positive, especially not for children? Since 1959...

Image 

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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Postby jumpy64 on Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:07 pm

Steve, I can't write much right now, but I promise that I will get back to the legitimate points you'raising here, also to clarify some important things.

Now I just want to tell you that I much appreciate your contribution here, especially in your latest posts. I might not agree with you here and there, but you're the only declared Jew in this thread, and you're legitimately defending your values and traditions in a very civil, polite way. And you're also offering valuable firsthand accounts of things most of us know only indirectly.

So thank you and write to you soon.

EDIT: I got a bit carried away here :) In fact, I disagree with Steve on most things, not just "here and there", but I still respect where he's coming from.
Last edited by jumpy64 on Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Postby Selene on Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:21 pm

jumpy64 wrote:Steve, I can't write much right now, but I promise that I will get back to the legitimate points you'raising here, also to clarify some important things.

Now I just want to tell you that I much appreciate your contribution here, especially in your latest posts. I might not agree with you here and there, but you're the only declared Jew in this thread, and you're legitimately defending your values and traditions in a very civil, polite way. And you're also offering valuable firsthand accounts of things most of us know only indirectly.

So thank you and write to you soon.

Jumpy, you are Italian, right? Have you ever been to Amsterdam? Or Antwerp? London maybe? New York? Israel? Moscow? Armenia? Persia?

Cities full of "cultural Jews" (as you labeled them, still a mystery to me how you can know that for all the conspirators around), are they living under a "Jewish_cult-reli conspiracy"? All those normal people having normal jobs and don't have any political or other power aspirations? The mayor of Amsterdam, Job Cohen, was a Jew (clear enough from the name), yet was criticised for being too multicultural-friendly (arguments for that are strong enough). Would you call promoting immigration of many muslims a "Jewish conspiracy"?? What is "Jewish" about it?

The second city of the country Rotterdam got a Moroccan-Dutch muslim (!) mayor not long after that. Did the people from Rotterdam live under a Moroccan/Muslim conspiracy, or is that different somehow?

Question is; which measures did you build in into your research based on intuition that help preventing you using a confirmation bias? Counting heads (I assume you haven't seen all -lacking?- foreskins...), is that enough stable ground for this uni-cultural-religious conspiracy to stand on??

Selene
Last edited by Selene on Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Postby jumpy64 on Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:22 pm

Seneca wrote:Oh so now you are changing the rules? Actually, all the good jews in that movie were christians ;)

What about "Once upon a time in America?". I don't remember it but it is about Jewish mobsters. It is from 1984 but was restored in 2012.


As you said, it is from 1984... But the reference to Jewish mobsters is very interesting. That is also a topic I'd like to be addressed here. Hoi already mentioned it in a previous post.

I mean, we Italian get almost all the attention in Mafia related topics and movies, but what about guys like Meyer Lansky (who was even acquitted in 1974), Bugsy Siegel (who's even memorialized in a New York's synagogue), Lepke Buchalter and the National Crime Syndicate, to give just a few examples? We haven't seen as many movies about them, have we?
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Postby jumpy64 on Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:29 pm

Selene wrote:Cities full of "cultural Jews" (as you labeled them, still a mystery to me how you can know that for all the conspirators around), are they living under a "Jewish_cult-reli conspiracy"? All those normal people having normal jobs and don't have any political or other power aspirations? The mayor of Amsterdam, Job Cohen, was a Jew (clear enough from the name), yet was criticised for being too multicultural-friendly (arguments for that are strong enough). Would you call promoting immigration of many muslims a "Jewish conspiracy"?? What is "Jewish" about it?


Selene, I just said I can't write much right now, but one of your objections is so easy to deal with that I'm doing it anyway.

I've already said that Jewish politicians and activists are extremely "multicultural-friendly", but just in foreign cities and States, while advocating even dna tests to preserve the "Jewness" (I hope I wrote it rightly) of Israel. And that I think it's part of their tactics to weaken other countries while preserving their own.
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Postby Seneca on Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:32 pm

Steve, if you are seeing there is misinformation spread here, it would be helpful if you provide a meaningful quote. The quote from Hoi and Simon you provided about blood sucking is clearly not misinformation. Neither of them was implying that the majority of jews were doing it at this moment in history.
I think that the only misinformation in that quote was "There is not a single Jew, or person of any religion, that I know that would tolerate such behavior."
I don't think it is very useful posting info about HIV on an anti-propaganda website. (I like this term Hoi)
Last edited by Seneca on Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Postby Selene on Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:39 pm

jumpy64 wrote:
Seneca wrote:Oh so now you are changing the rules? Actually, all the good jews in that movie were christians ;)

What about "Once upon a time in America?". I don't remember it but it is about Jewish mobsters. It is from 1984 but was restored in 2012.


As you said, it is from 1984... But the reference to Jewish mobsters is very interesting. That is also a topic I'd like to be addressed here. Hoi already mentioned it in a previous post.

I mean, we Italian get almost all the attention in Mafia related topics and movies, but what about guys like Meyer Lansky (who was even acquitted in 1974), Bugsy Siegel (who's even memorialized in a New York's synagogue), Lepke Buchalter and the National Crime Syndicate, to give just a few examples? We haven't seen as many movies about them, have we?


Jumpy, I don't mind you keep jumping from goalpost to goalpost, and that Hollywood and media have a higher than average % of Jews (at least based on names and/or own admittance) is no surprise either. That certain topics are taboo and others played out as long as the master psy-oplogist demands, is also no surprise, but what makes that "Jewish conspiracy" then so "Jewish"?

Which elements from the "Jewish cultural religious traditions" are uniquely and unavoidably linked to these conspiracies? Does the Torah or Talmud say "thou shalt deceive the world and kill your fellow Jews to get the "Holy Land" forever"? How come then that there are psychopathical, hoaxing, deceiving, egocentric, lying, enslaving, murdering Jews and at the same time Jews living according cultural or religious principles and -except their archaeic child mutilations- do no harm at all?

How can you ever sweep those two extremes together and call your painting "The Jewish Conspiracy In Plain Sight"? :wacko:

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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Postby Selene on Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:55 pm

jumpy64 wrote:
Selene wrote:Cities full of "cultural Jews" (as you labeled them, still a mystery to me how you can know that for all the conspirators around), are they living under a "Jewish_cult-reli conspiracy"? All those normal people having normal jobs and don't have any political or other power aspirations? The mayor of Amsterdam, Job Cohen, was a Jew (clear enough from the name), yet was criticised for being too multicultural-friendly (arguments for that are strong enough). Would you call promoting immigration of many muslims a "Jewish conspiracy"?? What is "Jewish" about it?


Selene, I just said I can't write much right now, but one of your objections is so easy to deal with that I'm doing it anyway.

I've already said that Jewish politicians and activists are extremely "multicultural-friendly", but just in foreign cities and States, while advocating even dna tests to preserve the "Jewness" (I hope I wrote it rightly) of Israel. And that I think it's part of their tactics to weaken other countries while preserving their own.


Jumpy, this is not a stereotypical forum. On other fora which you may be used to (or not), it's a matter of fighting or "discarding the argument", Cluesforum is different. What counts here is evidence, arguments and other heavy content. Not "dismissing the argument". I see no battle between us, even if my style may come across like it. I am curious and hard yet open to be convinced of more shifts in my world views than I've experienced in the recent past.

Now you jump to a hypothesis that ties into the "refugee crisis", propagandised and semi-hoaxed this summer and indeed the cultural marxism that some Jews are playing out on others, like mayor Cohrn.

But then forcing multiculturalism onto people (of which a decent percentage of Jews) making a "standard practice" of "Jewish conspiracies" becomes problematic with Israel? There the opposite policy is enforced...

Fine to have an hypothesis, but that doesn't make it suddenly an argument for a case you have only constructed the first definition and some sketches for the future of? In 7 pages.

No need for rushed replies either. My questions stand quietly in the sand. Talking of which, take some time to watch Shlomo. Tell me what you think. Does this "pure Jewness" really exist? And if it doesn't, how can you mix "DNA/genealogy/offspring laws" with the definition that you specifically set at non-biological yet "cultural and religious traditions"?
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Postby ICfreely on Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:00 pm

I get where you’re coming from Steve O. I don’t take any credit/responsibility for any ‘Christian accomplishments/atrocities’ either. Anyone trying to piece together clues to prove a suspicion, ‘educated’ guess or (dreaded) theory, will most likely end up ‘proving’ their a priori assumption(s). 'Let truth be thy authority' is lost on a lot of people.

BTW, I second your 'declaration of freedom of thought' from the rocketry post!

I am just curious as to how, and why, we are certain that there even is a "vacuum" in (outer) space.

Is it simply taken for granted, or has there been any concrete evidence put forth of the lack of "earth like" atmosphere above the Karman line (100 km above sea level)?

regards,

Steve O.

"when everyone is thinking the same thing, chances are no one is thinking at all"


Tutankhamen, halleluiah and mazel-mazel!
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Postby omaxsteve on Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:25 pm

Seneca wrote:Steve, if you are seeing there is misinformation spread here, it would be helpful if you provide a meaningful quote. The quote from Hoi and Simon you provided about blood sucking is clearly not misinformation. Neither of them was implying that the majority of jews were doing it at this moment in history.
I think that the only misinformation in that quote was "There is not a single Jew, or person of any religion, that I know that would tolerate such behavior."
I don't think it is very useful posting info about HIV on an anti-propaganda website. (I like this term Hoi)


You are right, Seneca, I stand corrected. The practice of of suctioning the blood by mouth to genital contact was one that I had never heard before yesterday. I stand by my statement that I do not (personally) know anyone that would , or should, tolerate such behavior. The "misinformation" I attempted to address was to prevent a person happening upon that to be led to believe that this is common practice in the modern area throughout the entire Jewish population, which is incorrect.

A video does not have to be proven to be "faked' for it to be labelled misleading.

As concerns the post that references HIV, it is my understanding that while the origin of the disease is one of the major "hoaxes' that are discusssed here, I am unaware of any controversy about the devastation and the importance of trying to quell the spread. That being said the article mentioned other benefits of circumcision besides it's apparent effectiveness in curtailing the spread of HIV.

regards,

Steve O.
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Postby Seneca on Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:30 pm

Selene wrote:Now you jump to a hypothesis that ties into the "refugee crisis", propagandised and semi-hoaxed this summer and indeed the cultural marxism that some Jews are playing out on others, like mayor Cohrn.

But then forcing multiculturalism onto people (of which a decent percentage of Jews) making a "standard practice" of "Jewish conspiracies" becomes problematic with Israel? There the opposite policy is enforced...

Fine to have an hypothesis, but that doesn't make it suddenly an argument for a case you have only constructed the first definition and some sketches for the future of? In 7 pages.


Jumpy64 isn't jumping to a hypothesis. He had mentioned this already in his first post:
jumpy64 wrote:They even have a collective name for the rest of the world, talking about it as an inferior species even in their religious texts. Consider this: in a "multicultural" world where everybody is supposed to say "no to racism", they can be openly and often viciously racist (and act upon their racism in very concrete ways, not just theorize about it), and have people not noticing or justifying it.

And not only that. They're even considered "progressive freedom-fighters" by most people because in the last couple of centuries at least they've been actually leading organizations that fight for the rights of “oppressed minorities” and immigrants. Admirable, you might say. But the problem is that, in the most blatant case of "double standards", in their own state they do the exact opposite of what they preach in others, expanding their borders with terroristic violence and closing them to anybody who doesn't belong to their race (they even have DNA tests to insure that!). They want us to think that race is just a form of "cultural conditioning", while they do everything to preserve their own.

And isn't it significant that they're fighting their battles for the rights of minorities exclusively in the countries were the predominant race is still (but most probably not for long) the one their religious texts consider their worst enemy? They seem to be applying to the West the "divide and conquer" tactics that their sacred books, but also their religious and political leaders, often preach openly about. And they’re doing it to the point of taking us to the verge of what can be considered, to all effects and purposes, a genocide against the targeted race.

It seems pretty clear to me that there is only one ethnic group in the world who really stands to benefit from the havoc that "multiculturalism" and mass immigration (to mention just a couple of main problems of our times, but this group seems to be behind several others too, like the usury of banking systems, for example) is causing in the western world. It seems just reasonable to think it must be the same group that spreads these phenomena in the rest of the world while protecting itself from them.


But I agree he needs to provide evidence. Here is some http://jlb.oxfordjournals.org/content/e ... sv027.full
The Israeli State recently announced that it may begin to use genetic tests to determine whether potential immigrants are Jewish or not. This development would demand a rethinking of Israeli law on the issue of the definition of Jewishness.


Selene wrote:No need for rushed replies either. My questions stand quietly in the sand. Talking of which, take some time to watch Shlomo. Tell me what you think. Does this "pure Jewness" really exist? And if it doesn't, how can you mix "DNA/genealogy/offspring laws" with the definition that you specifically set at non-biological yet "cultural and religious traditions"?


I watched the Shlomo lecture and it was interesting although not new. But it made me think about the Jewish state and its relation to the other conspiracies. But it appears that people are still not getting what I meant.
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Postby Selene on Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:35 pm

omaxsteve wrote:As concerns the post that references HIV, it is my understanding that while the origin of the disease is one of the major "hoaxes' that are discusssed here, I am unaware of any controversy about the devastation and the importance of trying to quell the spread. That being said the article mentioned other benefits of circumcision besides it's apparent effectiveness in curtailing the spread of HIV.

regards,

Steve O.


Dear Steve, not having seen an HIVirus or anything alike, my position is the same as yours.

But a narrative that your are repeating here about "circumcision helps against AIDS" is either a double hoax in one or a missolution (cf. misinformation) against a real disease (or hoax).

This is the sales pitch...

The eventual sociodramatic effect amongst healthy sexual Homo sapiens becomes clear when the still-dominant Catholic Church actively disencourage a real protection against an either real or fake disease; condoms.

"What the heck, I'm circumcised, screw you" :rolleyes:

Jewish culture and successful sales are rather positive than negative correlating...
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Re: "Hiding in Plain Sight: Reflections on an Open Conspirac

Postby Critical Mass on Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:40 pm

omaxsteve wrote:Finally on the subject of circumcision, it is not completely black and white issue. There are some very strong arguments on the anti-circumcision side, but it is not a totally one-sided argument;

I've already posted to a (hilarious) pro-circumcision site... however on average, per annum, exactly how many babies die from penile cancer or get HIV or other STD's or suffer from allegedly painful 'first time sexual experiences' or all the other pro-circumcision 'facts' that get brought up?

For a member of Cluesforum to say that this is not a 'black & white' issue is... troubling to me.

We're not a bunch of limp-wristed, weak willed, dithering academics here... we're meant to be the 'creme de la creme' of skeptical thought.

Are you seriously saying the unconsented mutilation of babies (or children in general) due to the paranormal 'religion' or 'culture' of one's parents is not a 'black & white' issue?

I ask again, what if you were a child born of Jewish (or Muslim or British Aristocratic) parents who doesn't want to be circumcised?
What legal protection does our wonderful 'modern society' provide these people?
Are babies really people... or just objects?



I, for one, will say it is a 'Black & white' issue...

Black... I own you & I'm cutting off your dick skin because I 'love' you.
White... your body is your own. Do with it as you wish.

I suppose one could also ask... should 'foreskin reconstruction' surgeries be offered for free?
Last edited by Critical Mass on Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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