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Re: REQUIRED: Introduce Yourself

Unread postby Shopguy on Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:22 am

[Admin Observation by SCS: Oh yes. . . Shopguy. . . now that was memorable for me. Notice, he made 11 posts over a 5 day period. And he never managed to so much as post outside of the “Introduce Yourself” thread. Please read my final post to him, which is followed by Simon’s most epic dismissal of this creature from our forum. It’s truly hilarious.]

I'm a gunsmith in the northwest USA, was in the military for a short time before they kicked me out. I'm interested in other views besides the biased crap I hear from the major news channels. Not sure what I can offer, but I would like to join in. Thanks.

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Re: REQUIRED: Introduce Yourself

Unread postby CluedIn on Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:59 am

Welcome Shopguy :) Since you brought it up, I'm curious as to what got you kicked out of the military?
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Re: REQUIRED: Introduce Yourself

Unread postby Shopguy on Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:15 pm

Thanks Cluedin.

I broke my leg while hiking in the woods. Had a bunch of surgery and limped around for a year before they decided I could not go to sea anymore. Did not really like the navy anyway. Some interesting stuff but too much crap to put up with.
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Re: REQUIRED: Introduce Yourself

Unread postby Flabbergasted on Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:51 pm

Shopguy » September 22nd, 2016, 10:15 am wrote:Some interesting stuff but too much crap to put up with.

As a noncombatant, I would like to learn more about both the interesting stuff and the crap.

And is there some connection between the Navy, gunsmithing and your handle?
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Re: REQUIRED: Introduce Yourself

Unread postby SacredCowSlayer on Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:30 pm

Flabbergasted » September 22nd, 2016, 8:51 am wrote:
Shopguy » September 22nd, 2016, 10:15 am wrote:Some interesting stuff but too much crap to put up with.

As a noncombatant, I would like to learn more about both the interesting stuff and the crap.

And is there some connection between the Navy, gunsmithing and your handle?


I've represented a number of active and former military people over the years.

It's interesting to listen to them carefully. I had a client recently tell me that he was a "nuclear engineer" in the Navy for almost 10 years. What's really interesting about that is he's in his upper 20s and never attended college.

I suppose they just tell you that you're a "nuclear engineer" and that makes it so. :wacko: I'm sure there are guys operating equipment by moving around, "loading", installing etc. what they BELIEVE to be nuclear (or whatever cool toy is claimed to exist) bombs.

I'm genuinely curious about how the military operates and what percentage of it is really "in the know".

I've met some military guys that seemed suspicious to me, but most of them are fairly simple minded and just trying to make a living and get a retirement out of it. On occasion I'll meet one that is quite smart, and any time that happens they leave ASAP or get kicked out for one reason or another.

Sadly I'm not at liberty to go asking questions within my own "community" about these touchy issues. It could bring real unwanted consequences into my life should I make the wrong move.

Sorry to hijack your intro Shopguy. And welcome to the forum. I do have a question for you though.
What particular event made you suspicious of the govern-media (that's what I sometimes refer to it as-although it's not a wholly adequate term)? And what led you to Cluesforum? I like to ask that because I consider it damn near miraculous for an honest person to find this place, since most people get filtered straight into the disinfo clown network.

Note to mods: If this needs to be moved to the Chatbox that's fine by me. I think this is a topic-like discussion worth having, but not necessarily as a new "topic".
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Re: REQUIRED: Introduce Yourself

Unread postby Shopguy on Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:26 am

Interesting things would be stuff like experiencing rapid dives and emergency surfacing operations of the boat, watching the TV showing the view through the periscope, pulling into foreign ports, meeting exotic women and avoiding even more exotic VD. Haha.

The crap would be long hours on watch and working with little sleep, putting up with bullcrap from senior petty officers on how I did my job, cleaning parts of the boat that always seem to be dirty, low pay, crappy barracks and other stuff like that.

There is no connection between the navy and my job. I work for a machine shop that does some outsourced work for a gunsmith. I was unable to get the navy to send me to a machinery tool operator school, but one of the other guys on the boat taught me how to use the lathe and it was very educational. A friend of mine helped me get my current job at the machine shop where I'm learning some gunsmithing. It is lots of fun and a decent way to make a living.

The officers on the boats are all required to qualify as Engineer. Engineer is a position on the ship filled by a junior officer who is usually a lieutenant or lieutenant commander. This doesn't mean they have a degree in nuclear engineering but some might. I think they all had a science or math degree of some sort. So if they call themselves a nuclear engineer because of their quals, I don't have a problem with it unless they are trying to deceive a person about their education. Most of the officers I knew were okay but a few had attitudes like they were better than me.

The boat's crew is divided into the engineering department (they push the boat, make water, cool the air and make electricity) who are mostly graduates of nuclear power school and then the rest are the various rates that work in the forward end of the ship. The guys up front (the nukes call us coners, as in nose cone of the sub) are the ones who run the ship, navigate, maintain and fire weapons and search for other ships to target. We got all the medals and went home earlier than the nukes, except for some of us (like me) in A-division.

If any enlisted man says he is a nuclear engineer because he is qualified to operate the nuclear power plant he is trying to play you for a chump. They are not engineers, just power plant operators.

I've never seen a nuclear weapon. As far as I know only the ballistic missile subs have nuke weapons and I was on a fast attack boat. I have never worried about asking the wrong question. What are they going to do, send me to sea on a fast attack? :) I wasn't really in the know on the boat. I knew where we were going, but not always where we were.

I heard some guys talking about this forum at a diner then later on looked it up. I registered on a whim to check it out but it took a long time before I could log on. As for my general distrust of the media, I just prefer to gather my own facts and see where they lead.
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Re: REQUIRED: Introduce Yourself

Unread postby hoi.polloi on Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:06 am

Well, I doubt they have non-existent fantasy weapons aboard real machines. Most likely they would want to save space for real weaponry and gear, including spy gear, and so forth.

What do you learn about military intelligence within the military?

I'm told by even the most lowly of officers that it's very obviously present, and people seem to get promoted through some kind of incredible machine of a system like an intelligence apparatus called "the top".

It seems, based on our research, that even "ex-military" remain very military minded, even if acting cool or swearing up and down they are separate or not effected by their training or by their very designed experience.

Would you say you ever came across a moment where you felt they were trying to control your belief system? Do you have regular contact with anyone within the military? Are they your friends? What does that "post-military" friendship between people "no longer in the military" resemble, and would you say it can sometimes promote a culture, mentality or ontology you had while in the military?

Knowing military secrets, aren't people once "inside" and now "outside" forever required to avoid any of the subjects we discuss and/or take particular positions on those subjects?
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Re: REQUIRED: Introduce Yourself

Unread postby Shopguy on Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:34 am

I know very little about military intelligence. I operated various machinery on the boat to support air systems, ventilation and sanitation. I learned how to drive the boat, operate sonar and stand security watch. I also got good at washing dishes in the galley for a few months. I was promoted three times based on time in rate and an exam score. I left the navy with an e-4 pay grade.

Other than learning to be trust worthy and trusting others to do our jobs, I really didn't see or learn anything that was really that strange. Being on a sub was the first time I really had to depend on others and after a while the crew got to where they could depend on me. You really got to trust the guys you are working with if you don't want to go nuts on a sub. Lots of complicated things to get right.

No one tried to change the way I felt about things other than occasional talks about politics and religion. I'm an atheist so I just brushed aside any talk of religion. I have a few friends that were in the military and an uncle who is a retired air force pilot. We tell stories at times, nothing serious.

I only signed one non disclosure agreement when I was in the navy. I can talk about anything I want other than what is classified like certain submarine capabilities. Just about everything I learned about subs can be found online as far as I know.

The military is a past life I will never live again. I like my life as a machinist much better.
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Re: REQUIRED: Introduce Yourself

Unread postby hoi.polloi on Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:33 pm

I think that's encouraging, although it's interesting you didn't notice what my friends and family in the military seem to have found so obvious. Different "compartments", I guess. What interests you about our site? How did you hear about it or find it? What has your journey been like in terms of finding your own right to ask socially questionable questions? :P
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Re: REQUIRED: Introduce Yourself

Unread postby Shopguy on Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:50 pm

What didn't I notice?

The forum is different than others I lurked at. As I said above, I heard someone talking about it then checked it out.

What do you mean by my right to to ask socially questionable questions? I do and say anything I want.
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Re: REQUIRED: Introduce Yourself

Unread postby SacredCowSlayer on Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:36 am

Shopguy, congrats on overhearing someone at a diner talking about this place. I find that remarkable.
I wished that had happened to me 5-6 years ago. I'll be surprised if I ever here anyone mention this place, but I suppose there is always hope.

What topics here are you most interested in? Fake shootings? Space adventures? Terror attacks?

Sadly I couldn't see the garbage for what it was (and remains) until Sandy Hook, although I was generally suspicious of the government and media before.

Was there a specific moment for you?

Sorry, I'm not trying to grill you. Just curious about the new people that come here.
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Re: REQUIRED: Introduce Yourself

Unread postby Shopguy on Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:29 am

I am most interested in how people decide that something happened in a certain way then choose what evidence they find convincing based on how well it will support the conclusion they previously arrived at.

For example some of my co-workers were talking to friends who said a person could never smile a week after they lost a loved one in a violent crime. I thought it was an absurd idea, but these people thought it was an excellent piece of evidence upon which to support a conclusion.

I've don't ever remember being a fan of the government, I was raised to be suspicious of them from a young age. This sounds like a strange position to take for a person who enlisted in the military, but I did need a job. :)
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Re: REQUIRED: Introduce Yourself

Unread postby CluedIn on Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:36 am

Shopguy » September 24th, 2016, 9:29 pm wrote:I am most interested in how people decide that something happened in a certain way then choose what evidence they find convincing based on how well it will support the conclusion they previously arrived at.

For example some of my co-workers were talking to friends who said a person could never smile a week after they lost a loved one in a violent crime. I thought it was an absurd idea, but these people thought it was an excellent piece of evidence upon which to support a conclusion.

I've don't ever remember being a fan of the government, I was raised to be suspicious of them from a young age. This sounds like a strange position to take for a person who enlisted in the military, but I did need a job. :)


Shopguy - I find your "friend of a friend" (co-worker in your case) story a little suspicious. How would a conversation like that work its way back to being told to you? Never, is a strong word about "smiling" a week after losing a loved one to a violent crime. Do you think it appropriate or normal for family members to be smiling and laughing immediately after their loved ones are killed, or is it absurd to think people would be in a constant state of depression and shouldn't be mugging for the camera? Because when I see a supposed father laughing at a podium after his 6 year old was just shot in the face, I don't Be-LIE-ve.

It is also surprising that you state you have been suspicious of the gov't from a young age, but you joined the military for a job? That doesn't make sense to me.
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Re: REQUIRED: Introduce Yourself

Unread postby Shopguy on Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:06 pm

The conversation did not work it's way back to me, I was present when it happened. While my co-workers are decent guys, I thought some of their choices of friends was bad. They expected people to believe their every word and when one of my co-workers questioned his friends opinion he was insulted. I didn't want to be insulted by them so I stayed out of the conversation and just listened.

I don't think it is unusual to see a person smiling or laughing after the loss of a loved one. I've attended funerals and wakes that took place after a death and it was the usual sort of thing for people to offer their sympathy and talk about the good times they had with the person who died. This is a good thing and I think it would be sick to let a person drown themselves in sorrow instead of trying to comfort them.

Most people are products of the environment they were raised in. I think that children raised by atheist parents who distrust the government might behave the same way. When I grew up I was responsible for myself. My distrust of the government was not so bad that I would refuse to work for them for a while. As it turns out it was mostly a waste of time. 3 years of my life I will never get back but it was not all bad, some of it was a learning experience.
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Re: REQUIRED: Introduce Yourself

Unread postby CluedIn on Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:28 pm

Shopguy » September 25th, 2016, 9:06 am wrote:I don't think it is unusual to see a person smiling or laughing after the loss of a loved one. I've attended funerals and wakes that took place after a death and it was the usual sort of thing for people to offer their sympathy and talk about the good times they had with the person who died. This is a good thing and I think it would be sick to let a person drown themselves in sorrow instead of trying to comfort them.


That was not my question. I said: Do you think it appropriate or normal for family members to be smiling and laughing immediately after their loved ones are killed? I was not referring to going to a funeral home and sharing stories about the good old days. I luckily have never been to a funeral for somebody who was murdered (but I have been to plenty of others), so I cannot attest to the tone of people under those circumstances. However, I believe a funeral for a 6 year old child (who was murdered or not) would be completely somber and there would be very little smiling or laughing, and if there was, it would be highly inappropriate.

You said you think it would be "sick" to let a person drown themselves in sorrow instead of trying to comfort them. I was not referring to other people trying to "lighten the mood", I'm talking about those people that are smiling, posing, laughing and giving interviews before their supposed dead family member's body is even cold. Sorrow and grief are natural human emotions that occur when we lose someone close to us. You seem to be pushing a "resiliency" meme that makes human grief and sorrow seem like "sick" things, when laughing, joking and giving interviews is the sickest, most unnatural thing in the world.
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