Simon in the USA — Summer 2018

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Re: Simon in the USA — Summer 2018

Unread postby patrix on Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:39 pm

Flabbergasted » August 24th, 2018, 1:35 pm wrote:
patrix » August 24th, 2018, 5:21 am wrote:But now we know those stars are similar to our own sun and we’ve detected planets together with them that rotates around their axis...

"Detected" in what sense? Have we sighted such planets, or is their existence (and rotation) merely inferred?

The evidence of rotating exoplanets may be a bit slim. There are some claims. But I would say the existence of exoplanets and binary systems are established and in our own system every planet has rotation.
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Re: Simon in the USA — Summer 2018

Unread postby Flabbergasted on Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:33 pm

patrix wrote:... the existence of exoplanets and binary systems are established...

I was asking about the nature of the evidence: is it visual? is it inferred from the orbits of binary stars? is it inferred from artifacts in cosmic microwave radiation? or something else?
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Re: Simon in the USA — Summer 2018

Unread postby patrix on Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:55 pm

Flabbergasted » August 24th, 2018, 8:33 pm wrote:
patrix wrote:... the existence of exoplanets and binary systems are established...

I was asking about the nature of the evidence: is it visual? is it inferred from the orbits of binary stars? is it inferred from artifacts in cosmic microwave radiation? or something else?

In later years, several exoplanets have been discovered by direct imaging, it is claimed
https://arxiv.org/abs/1307.2886
and various other techniques have also been used according to wickedpedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exoplanet
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Re: Simon in the USA — Summer 2018

Unread postby aa5 on Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:30 pm

Thats the problem with exoplanets. If they have blatant errors in their math and theories for our solar system, what chance is there that they are really finding exoplanets with their calculations.
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Re: Simon in the USA — Summer 2018

Unread postby patrix on Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:06 pm

aa5 » August 24th, 2018, 10:30 pm wrote:Thats the problem with exoplanets. If they have blatant errors in their math and theories for our solar system, what chance is there that they are really finding exoplanets with their calculations.

I hear you. It is very hard to know what and whom to believe. But I find it reasonable to assume exoplanets are real and that this in turn supports the notion that our Sun and the stars are similar entities, and that this together with the confirmed rotations of the planets in our system makes it logical to assume that Earth has a rotation. And this is also supported by several experiments.
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Re: Simon in the USA — Summer 2018

Unread postby pov603 on Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:32 am

@aa5
I think the rulers are quite happy with people having the idea that even ultra creative people its too late for them to make an impact in science.

Totally agree with your points made.
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Re: Simon in the USA — Summer 2018

Unread postby patrix on Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:47 am

pov603 » August 25th, 2018, 5:32 am wrote:@aa5
I think the rulers are quite happy with people having the idea that even ultra creative people its too late for them to make an impact in science.

Totally agree with your points made.

So do I. Very well put aa5. Forgot to say that before. And I hope we find ways to make young people understand that this is the current state of the world so that their intellect and creativity is not wasted. Our common frame of reference should be the real world and its physics and not the Nutworks fantasy ditto. I have for example asked people with an engineering degree what they think would happen if they stand in a vaccum chamber and drop a balloon filled with air. Very few think it will just fall to the ground even though that is in accordance with verified physics.
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Re: Simon in the USA — Summer 2018

Unread postby aa5 on Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:48 am

A lot of people in my family are engineers, and then a lot of their friends are engineers as well. So I get a lot of frustration at how hard headed they are.
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Re: Simon in the USA — Summer 2018

Unread postby Mansur on Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:28 pm

patrix » August 24th, 2018, 11:06 pm wrote:...It is very hard to know what and whom to believe. But I find it reasonable to assume exoplanets are real and that this in turn supports the notion that our Sun and the stars are similar entities, and that this together with the confirmed rotations of the planets in our system makes it logical to assume that Earth has a rotation. And this is also supported by several experiments.


This seems really a hard thing — of what data and claims originating from and made by organizations such as NASA, or by the very mysterious networks of (billion dollar) observatories all over the world, should one believe or choose as trustworthy.

In the cited post it seems in addition that patrix resorts to infos of exoplanets to confirm, as if by analogy, the Earth’s rotation — contested here by nobody at all. Not too reasonable, I assume.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

This woman speaks (“eagerly”) of the thing (hunting for and finding exoplanets) as the second Copernican Revolution or as the completion of it — and has all the red flag about her that we “need”.
https://www.nasa.gov/topics/universe/fe ... unter.html

To be an enthusiast about exoplanets (or about anything nowadays passes as astronomy or astrophysics) is either idiocy, or rather clear madness, — or it is “media fakery” :
https://exoplanets.nasa.gov/news/1440/a ... nd-worlds/

Is it not more than reasonable to assume that this (false) enthusiasm is being a real or even absolute hindrance to real knowledge concerning both the outer world and inner world (“ourselves”) ? And that spreading this attitude as wide as possible is not one of the first class importance to the “perps”?
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Re: Simon in the USA — Summer 2018

Unread postby patrix on Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:02 pm

Mansur » August 30th, 2018, 5:28 pm wrote:Is it not more than reasonable to assume that this (false) enthusiasm is being a real or even absolute hindrance to real knowledge concerning both the outer world and inner world (“ourselves”)? And that spreading this attitude as wide as possible is not one of the first class importance to the “perps”?

We can be fooled in two ways - To believe what is not true and to not believe what is in fact true. I agree that many claims around exoplanets are absurd, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I find it evident that stars are distant suns and therefore it is reasonable to assume that it's the Earth that rotates and not these suns that are spinning around Earth at incredible speeds. And since that hypothesis is supported by experiments I would say the case is settled until some other experiment is carried out that can disprove this.
Earths suggested orbit around the Sun is a different matter since no observation or experiment supports this idea.
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Re: Simon in the USA — Summer 2018

Unread postby Mansur on Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:55 pm

We can be fooled in two ways - To believe what is not true and to not believe what is in fact true.


We can be fooled in many-many-many ways… Do you think what is true we should "believe"?

And since that hypothesis is supported by experiments I would say the case is settled until some other experiment is carried out that can disprove this.


Any theory or hypothesis can be justified or supported by experiments as much as you want.

...many claims around exoplanets are absurd, but that doesn't mean they don't exist...


Which claims are not? (to support your logic.)

How to make experiment which would support the idea that no amount of experiment can be a proof to any theory or hypothesis?
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Re: Simon in the USA — Summer 2018

Unread postby PianoRacer on Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:44 pm

I find it evident that stars are distant suns


Based on what evidence? Even the mainstream - and Mr. Brahe himself - seem to acknowledge that there are issues with the "stars are distant suns" theory:

Image
https://physics.ucf.edu/~britt/Geophysi ... rnicus.pdf

And since that hypothesis is supported by experiments


Which experiments? Obviously not the most "famous" ones, i.e. Michelson-Morley, Kennedy-Thorndike, Sagnac, Airy's Failure, etc. Any that you have performed yourself?
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Re: Simon in the USA — Summer 2018

Unread postby patrix on Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:40 am

PianoRacer » September 1st, 2018, 12:44 am wrote:
I find it evident that stars are distant suns


Based on what evidence? Even the mainstream - and Mr. Brahe himself - seem to acknowledge that there are issues with the "stars are distant suns" theory:

Which experiments? Obviously not the most "famous" ones, i.e. Michelson-Morley, Kennedy-Thorndike, Sagnac, Airy's Failure, etc. Any that you have performed yourself?

Brahe's objection regarding stars and the Copernican model was about their size. If the Earth moves 300 million km every 6 months the stars had to be extremely far away to not display any parallax and therefore very large to be visible. Something Brahe found unreasonable.
Brahes apprentice Longomontanus added a diurnal rotation to Brahes model in Astronomia Danica. I would like to think that Brahe therefore was open to this idea since this book is regarded as his testament.

The Michelson–Morley experiment was about Earths suggested high orbital speed and failed to show that. The Foucault pendulum, the Sagnac effect and other experiments concerned the diurnal rotation. I just found this article on the subject (click print and you will get a pdf) http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1913PA.....21..208R

Edit. I found this interesting paper at the same place about Brahes and Longomontanus influence on Chinese astronomy.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1987JHA....18...95H
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Re: Simon in the USA — Summer 2018

Unread postby aa5 on Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:32 pm

The Earth being stationary or near stationary would explain the lack of parallax with the stars.

Also the stars don't look that far apart from each other when I look into the sky. If they were really light years away from each other, they would have to be of a ridiculous size to appear so close to each other.

The starting assumption should work with stars the same size as our Sun. And even on that front I have doubts that the Sun is so far away from us and so big as claimed.
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Re: Simon in the USA — Summer 2018

Unread postby PianoRacer on Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:53 pm

Hi Patrix,

You didn't really answer any of my questions, so here they are again:

[The idea that stars are distant suns is] based on what evidence?

[The idea that the Earth rotates is supported by] which experiments?

Any that you have performed yourself?


I read a dozen or so pages from the book that you linked to but could find nothing compelling. Perhaps you can be more specific? Pendulums were mentioned - I suppose you could cite Foucault's pendulum, but then you would have to account for the Alais effect during eclipses (which of course Wikipedia labels as "alleged" and "inconclusive" but anyone who has read Allais' book knows better):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allais_effect

Mainstream sources admit that this effect has never been explained:

https://arxiv.org/ftp/gr-qc/papers/0408/0408023.pdf
Abstract
Conventional explanations for observations of anomalous behaviour of mechanical
systems during solar eclipses are critically reviewed. These observations include the work
of Allais with paraconical pendula, those of Saxl and Allen with a torsion pendulum and
measurements with gravimeters
.
Attempts of replications of these experiments and recent
gravimeter results are discussed and unpublished data by Latham and by Saxl et al. is
presented. Some of the data are summarized and re-analyzed. Especially, attention is paid
to observations of tilt of the vertical, which seems to play an important role in this matter
and recommendations for future research are given. It is concluded that all the proposed
conventional explanations either qualitatively or quantitatively fail to explain the
observations


Can you give me any more insight, dear Patrix, as to what underpins your seemingly unshakable convictions that stars are in fact distant suns, and that the Earth rotates on it's axis once per day? And can you confirm the presumed answer to question #3, in that you have, in fact, never undertaken yourself any experiments to personally verify either of these two theories, but instead you must rely on what you are told by those in the mainstream?

All the best,
-PR
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