Vaccinations: The Medical, Legal, and Social Implications

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Re: Vaccinations: The Medical, Legal, and Social Implication

Unread postby simonshack on Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:59 pm

SacredCowSlayer wrote:Unfortunately, it would appear that a substantial portion of the population has been mentally vaccinated against basic logic and genuine critical thinking.


Funny that; I've been thinking so as well - in later decades. :mellow:
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Re: Vaccinations: The Medical, Legal, and Social Implication

Unread postby ICfreely on Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:19 am

If you Google “Ethan Lindenberger” you’ll find literally hundreds of articles from People Magazine to WebMD to MarketWatch running stories on this little twerp. From the small sampling that I sifted through I found them essentially identical in tone and tenor. Almost as if they all got their scripts and marching orders from Central Command (Reuters/Associated Press). They’re trying way too hard in my opinion.

Are they grooming this little Pisa $chitt to be the John Kerry of his generation?


Anti-vaxxer teen tells Congress why he vaccinated himself against his mom’s wishes
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/these-parents-didnt-vaccinate-their-kids-so-now-the-kids-are-doing-it-themselves-2019-02-11

Ohio Teen Chooses to Get Vaccinated in Defiance of His Anti-Vaxx Parents: 'God Knows How I'm Still Alive'
https://people.com/health/teen-getting-vaccinations-anti-vaxx-parents/


G-d knows, alright.

Teens Fighting Back Against Anti-Vaccination Views of Their Parents

The recent measles outbreak has caused some teenagers to seek advice on how to get vaccinated against a variety of diseases.

The laws vary from state to state on whether teenagers can get vaccinated without their parents’ permission.

Can a teenager get a vaccine without their parents’ consent? The legalities of it vary from state to state, but some teens are trying nonetheless.
Such is the case of Ethan Lindenberger, an unvaccinated 18-year-old who kicked off a Reddit thread asking for advice on obtaining vaccines.

That thread received more than 1,200 responses from the community. Lindenberger joins a pair of other self-described teenagers — including those under the age of 18 — on Reddit looking for advice, the Washington Post reports.

Call it an act of teenage rebellion, but one with health-conscious consequences
.

[Rebel With a Cause? :unsure: ]

The anti-vaccination movement has been back in the news as more than 100 measles cases, including more than 50 in Washington state, have been reported in the United States.

The rise of cases of vaccine-preventable diseases is almost certainly tied to anti-vaccine activism, experts say.

[Most certainly. :rolleyes: ]

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/teens-fight-back-against-anti-vaccination-views-of-their-parents



Are there really “growing numbers” of teens following Ethan’s lead or is it all wishful thinking?

What’s next, Ethan on stage at Coachella 2019 shouting, “Don’t trust anyone over 30!” to a cheering crowd of health-conscious, pro-vaccine teenagers?

Where’s Ethan’s “anti-vaxxer” mother in all this?

Can we expect a grand mia culpa moment from her on Oprah or Dr. Phil in the not too distant future?

Do any of this kid's stories ring true to any CF contributors/readers?


Re: Engineering disease
by ICfreely on December 12th, 2018, 3:38 pm


I'm a vaccine dissident through & through. I'm neither an authority nor an expert on vaccines. I have nothing to sell. Whether or not you, the reader, get vaccinated or vaccinate your child/children is of no consequence to me. To each his own. But if vaccines, for the sake of argument, are as safe and beneficial as they're purported to be, then why does WHO feel the need to go to such lengths?


How to respond to vocal vaccine deniers in public – World Health Organization – Regional Office for Europe

Abstract

This guidance document provides basic broad principles for a spokesperson of any health authority on how to respond to vocal vaccine deniers. The suggestions are based on psychological research on persuasion, on research in public health, communication studies and on WHO risk communication guidelines.
...
The strategies presented in the following chapters convey two main rules that serve as guiding principles to rethink the way you debate and achieve the primary goal of a public discussion with a vocal vaccine denier, which is to make the public resilient against anti-vaccine rhetoric:

Rule 1 - The general public is your target audience, not the vocal vaccine denier

Rule 2 - Aim to unmask the techniques that the vocal vaccine denier is using AND correct the content

Goal - Make the public audience more resilient against anti-vaccine statements and stories; support the vaccine hesitants in their vaccine acceptance decision

http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/315761/Best-practice-guidance-respond-vocal-vaccine-deniers-public.pdf


Shyster tactics if you ask me.

(https://cluesforum.info/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2027&start=450#p2409080)



Time is not on their side, my good sirs & ladies. :)
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Re: Vaccinations: The Medical, Legal, and Social Implication

Unread postby Natural Philosopher on Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:30 am

Yes, this Ethan Lindberger is another David Hogg, except the phoniness is (if anything) even more transparent. The message is clear: the elites want you to get vaccinated, by force if necessary, and no reasoned debate on the pros and cons of vaccination will be tolerated.
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Re: Vaccinations: The Medical, Legal, and Social Implication

Unread postby aa5 on Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:14 am

It was funny a forum I was reading they called David Hogg a 'snotzi'. (teenagers who push statism)

For vaccine arguments it takes quite awhile for a human being to get to the level of knowledge of medicine and biology to be able to make a reasoned decision on the subject of medical efficacy. This is why although a teenager playing a doctor on television is a funny show, in reality no sane person would go to a teenage doctor.
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Re: Vaccinations: The Medical, Legal, and Social Implication

Unread postby patrix on Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:25 am

simonshack » March 9th, 2019, 9:59 pm wrote:
SacredCowSlayer wrote:Unfortunately, it would appear that a substantial portion of the population has been mentally vaccinated against basic logic and genuine critical thinking.


Funny that; I've been thinking so as well - in later decades. :mellow:


Well being unhealthy and occupied with made up worries and materialism does "wonders".

A healthy person worries and thinks about many things. A sick person only thinks about one thing. So the strategy is make up enough fake things for people to worry about and preferably make them sick as well. Brave New world.
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Re: Vaccinations: The Medical, Legal, and Social Implication

Unread postby sharpstuff on Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:33 am

Dear Members,

I found this article today which I thought was very interesting.

Obviously I am not in agreement with the notion of 'germs','viruses', 'immune systems', 'herd immunity' but nevertheless I can agree with most else as it does address a number of issues.

I have cut and pasted the entire article,

Be well,
Sharpstuff

****************************************************************

Daisy Luther – The Organic Prepper March 6, 2019

Tensions are high regarding vaccines lately.

Due to a measles outbreak in the United States, frightened people are pushing an agenda to take an important medical decision out of the hands of parents. They’re calling for federally mandated vaccines. They’re calling for the shaming of parents who have chosen not to vaccinate their children.

The hysteria is running high, fueled by fear and memes.

Whether you opt to vaccinate or not to vaccinate, I think we can agree we all want what’s best for our children.
The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons opposes federally mandated vaccines.

An important letter was presented last week to the Senate subcommittee that is discussing federal laws that force parents to vaccinate their children. The statement below is from The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, and they have come out strongly in opposition to the possibility of federally mandated vaccines.

No matter what your opinion is on vaccinating children, please read this.

To: Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee, House Energy and Commerce Committee

Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions

Re: Statement federal vaccine mandates

Feb. 26, 2019

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) strongly opposes federal interference in medical decisions, including mandated vaccines. After being fully informed of the risks and benefits of a medical procedure, patients have the right to reject or accept that procedure. The regulation of medical practice is a state function, not a federal one. Governmental preemption of patients’ or parents’ decisions about accepting drugs or other medical interventions is a serious intrusion into individual liberty, autonomy, and parental decisions about child-rearing.

A public health threat is the rationale for the policy on mandatory vaccines. But how much of a threat is required to justify forcing people to accept government-imposed risks? Regulators may intervene to protect the public against a one-in-one million risk of a threat such as cancer from an involuntary exposure to a toxin, or-one-in 100,000 risk from a voluntary (e.g. occupational) exposure. What is the risk of death, cancer, or crippling complication from a vaccine? There are no rigorous safety studies of sufficient power to rule out a much lower risk of complications, even one in 10,000, for vaccines. Such studies would require an adequate number of subjects, a long duration (years, not days), an unvaccinated control group (“placebo” must be truly inactive such as saline, not the adjuvant or everything-but-the-intended-antigen), and consideration of all adverse health events (including neurodevelopment disorders).

Vaccines are necessarily risky, as recognized by the U.S. Supreme Court and by Congress. The Vaccine Injury Compensation Program has paid some $4 billion in damages, and high hurdles must be surmounted to collect compensation. The damage may be so devastating that most people would prefer restored function to a multimillion-dollar damage award.

The smallpox vaccine is so dangerous that you can’t get it now, despite the weaponization of smallpox. Rabies vaccine is given only after a suspected exposure or to high-risk persons such as veterinarians. The whole-cell pertussis vaccine was withdrawn from the U.S. market, a decade later than from the Japanese market, because of reports of severe permanent brain damage. The acellular vaccine that replaced it is evidently safer, though somewhat less effective.

The risk: benefit ratio varies with the frequency and severity of disease, vaccine safety, and individual patient factors. These must be evaluated by patient and physician, not imposed by a government agency.

Measles is the much-publicized threat used to push for mandates, and is probably the worst threat among the vaccine-preventable illnesses because it is so highly contagious. There are occasional outbreaks, generally starting with an infected individual coming from somewhere outside the U.S. The majority, but by no means all the people who catch the measles have not been vaccinated. Almost all make a full recovery, with robust, life-long immunity. The last measles death in the U.S. occurred in 2015, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention(CDC). Are potential measles complications including death in persons who cannot be vaccinated due to immune deficiency a justification for revoking the rights of all Americans and establishing a precedent for still greater restrictions on our right to give—or withhold—consent to medical interventions? Clearly not.

Many serious complications have followed MMR vaccination, and are listed in the manufacturers’ package insert, though a causal relationship may not have been proved. According to a 2012 report by the Cochrane Collaboration, “The design and reporting of safety outcomes in MMR vaccine studies, both pre- and post-marketing, are largely inadequate” (cited by the National Vaccine Information Center).

Mandate advocates often assert a need for a 95% immunization rate to achieve herd immunity. However, Mary Holland and Chase Zachary of NYU School of Law argue, in the Oregon Law Review, that because complete herd immunity and measles eradication are unachievable, the better goal is for herd effect and disease control. The best outcome would result, they argue, from informed consent, more open communication, and market-based approaches.

Even disregarding adverse vaccine effects, the results of near-universal vaccination have not been completely positive. Measles, when it does occur, is four to five times worse than in pre-vaccination times, according to Lancet Infectious Diseases, because of the changed age distribution: more adults, whose vaccine-based immunity waned, and more infants, who no longer receive passive immunity from their naturally immune mother to protect them during their most vulnerable period.

Measles is a vexing problem, and more complete, forced vaccination will likely not solve it. Better public health measures—earlier detection, contact tracing, and isolation; a more effective, safer vaccine; or an effective treatment are all needed. Meanwhile, those who choose not to vaccinate now might do so in an outbreak, or they can be isolated. Immunosuppressed patients might choose isolation in any event because vaccinated people can also possibly transmit measles even if not sick themselves.

Issues that Congress must consider:

Manufacturers are virtually immune from product liability, so the incentive to develop safer products is much diminished. Manufacturers may even refuse to make available a product believed to be safer, such as monovalent measles vaccine in preference to MMR (measles-mumps-rubella). Consumer refusal is the only incentive to do better.
There are enormous conflicts of interest involving lucrative relationships with vaccine purveyors.
Research into possible vaccine adverse effects is being quashed, as is dissent by professionals.
There are many theoretical mechanisms for adverse effects from vaccines, especially in children with developing brains and immune systems. Note the devastating effects of Zika or rubella virus on developing humans, even though adults may have mild or asymptomatic infections. Many vaccines contain live viruses intended to cause a mild infection. Children’s brains are developing rapidly—any interference with the complex developmental symphony could be ruinous.
Vaccines are neither 100% safe nor 100% effective. Nor are they the only available means to control the spread of disease.

AAPS believes that liberty rights are unalienable. Patients and parents have the right to refuse vaccination, although potentially contagious persons can be restricted in their movements (e.g. as with Ebola), as needed to protect others against a clear and present danger. Unvaccinated persons with no exposure to a disease and no evidence of a disease are not a clear or present danger.

AAPS represents thousands of physicians in all specialties nationwide. It was founded in 1943 to protect private medicine and the patient-physician relationship.

Respectfully yours,

Jane M. Orient, M.D., Executive Director

Association of American Physicians and Surgeons
Can we have a respectful conversation about this?

Like I said above, regardless of our opinions on vaccines, we all want to do what is best for our children. Can we share some thoughts in the comments section about the pros or cons of mandatory vaccinations?

Be civil so we can keep the conversation going. Name-calling, rude comments, and blanket generalizations of entire swaths of people will be deleted, no matter which side of the debate you’re on. So let’s have a really good, productive conversation, okay?

PS: And for that guy (you know who you are) who was raging about his First Amendment right to free speech? You don’t have that on my blog. It’s protected by the Communications Decency Act, section 230. This is a privately owned business. I have every right to protect my readers from racist rants, profanity, and inflammatory comments. You are welcome to go elsewhere to comment if you don’t like the way I moderate the conversation here.

********************************************************************************
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Re: Vaccinations: The Medical, Legal, and Social Implication

Unread postby aa5 on Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:52 am

If there was actual large scale, randomized, placebo controlled clinical trials of vaccines, then we could judge their efficacy and their risks/side effects.

And conceivably, the threat to the child's life could be so great from 'viruses' that mandatory vaccinations could be considered. Where that line would be drawn would depend on the culture and governing ethos of each country. For example, America would hopefully lean more towards individual freedoms than some other nations.

In the real world those clinical trials have never been done, and will never be done. I put any untested medical 'treatment', in the kooky alternative medicine category.
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Re: Vaccinations: The Medical, Legal, and Social Implication

Unread postby ICfreely on Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:58 pm

aa5 wrote:If there was actual large scale, randomized, placebo controlled clinical trials of vaccines, then we could judge their efficacy and their risks/side effects.
...


I HIGHLY doubt it, aa5.

Re: Engineering disease
by ICfreely on Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:19 am



The Science Delusion: Freeing the Spirit of Enquiry – Rupert Sheldrake

Chapter 10 - Is Mechanistic Medicine the Only Kind that Really Works?

Placebo responses and the power of hope

...

In 2009, placebo responses turned out to be increasing – especially in the United States. In clinical trials, fewer and fewer new drugs beat the placebos. In other words, more and more drugs failed in clinical trials, causing big problems for drug companies. Why have placebo responses increased in the Unasesing big pited States, but not elsewhere? The answer may be that drug companies are victims of their own success. In 1997, direct-to-consumer advertising for drugs was made legal in the United States, and as a result US citizens have been deluged with advertisements for prescription medicines. Many of these commercials evoke uplifting associations between pills and peace of mind. The pharmaceutical industry’s advertising has been all too successful in raising expectations about new drugs, increasing the placebo response in clinical trials, and hence reducing the difference between the placebo and the drug being tested.32 If materialism were an adequate foundation for medicine, placebo responses ought not to occur. The fact that they do occur shows that people’s beliefs and hopes can have positive effects on their health and healing. Conversely, despair and hopelessness can have negative effects. There is even a field of research devoted to this subject: psychoneuroimmunology. Stress, anxiety and depression suppress the activity of the immune system, and make it less able to resist diseases and inhibit the growth of cancerous cells.33 Hence people who are anxious or depressed are more likely to fall ill or get cancer. Placebo responses show that health and sickness are not just a matter of physics and chemistry. They also depend on hopes, meanings and beliefs. Placebo responses are an integral part of healing.

https://eduardolbm.files.wordpress.com/%20...%20ldrake.pdf


https://cluesforum.info/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2027&p=2408949&hilit=placebo#p2408949
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Re: Vaccinations: The Medical, Legal, and Social Implication

Unread postby anonjedi2 on Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:57 am

That Peter Hotez fellow was on Joe Rogan recently. Worth a watch, despite his constant interrupting when Joe tries to ask a question. Especially troubling are the parts where he says he refuses to debate any anti-vaxxer, claiming it's akin to debating a holocaust denier (about 35 minutes in the interview) and actually calls for Amazon to ban all anti-vax books, but not his, of course (at about 17 minutes). Because his is the ultimate source of truth, you see. :D

He goes on and on about the "anti-vaccine lobby" which I find quite amusing. :P

At another point, later in the interview, Hotez cites an article / study and then when Joe asks him where he can read about it, he says it's behind a paywall and you have to buy his book. What a clown. Lots of mental gymnastics in this interview, very entertaining.

Shades of climate science nonsense, if you ask me. In fact, at one point in the interview he postulates that the recent rise of certain viruses might be due to climate change. :rolleyes:


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dodsGp37M50

I also found this in the comments:

"Truthstream media just dropped a video that gives some more details and insights about Dr Hortez 'Free Speech and Shutting Down the Vaccine Debate'."


full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3EHrjfLXaw
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Re: Vaccinations: The Medical, Legal, and Social Implication

Unread postby ICfreely on Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:47 am

Nice find, anonjedi2. I remember Rogan questioning the "moon landings" a few years ago only to later invite Neil deGrasse Tyson to "set him straight" on his "scientific denialism." He knows that he has to toe the line if he wants to protect the cash-cow that the Joe Rogan Experience podcast is.



anonjedi2 wrote:That Peter Hotez fellow was on Joe Rogan recently. Worth a watch, despite his constant interrupting when Joe tries to ask a question. Especially troubling are the parts where he says he refuses to debate any anti-vaxxer, claiming it's akin to debating a holocaust denier (about 35 minutes in the interview) and actually calls for Amazon to ban all anti-vax books, but not his, of course (at about 17 minutes). Because his is the ultimate source of truth, you see. :D

He goes on and on about the "anti-vaccine lobby" which I find quite amusing. :P

At another point, later in the interview, Hotez cites an article / study and then when Joe asks him where he can read about it, he says it's behind a paywall and you have to buy his book. What a clown. Lots of mental gymnastics in this interview, very entertaining.

Shades of climate science nonsense, if you ask me. In fact, at one point in the interview he postulates that the recent rise of certain viruses might be due to climate change. :rolleyes:



If you substitute "denier" with "promoter", doesn't the below excerpt basically describe the actions/tactics of Dr. Hotez?


How to respond to vocal vaccine deniers in public – World Health Organization – Regional Office for Europe

1.3. Who are vocal vaccine deniers?
...
Table 1: Actions undertaken to spread messages of vaccine denialism. Adapted from Kata [18).

1. Skewing the science
Vocal vaccine deniers ignore and reject scientific evidence that counters their arguments. They only consider results that seem to confirm their belief. These results either do not represent the scientific consensus, are poorly conducted or misinterpreted by the denier.

2. Shifting hypothesis
Vocal vaccine deniers change the topic that they are addressing when they fear to lose an argument. They are willing to claim any hypotheses that seems to support their core statement i.e. vaccines cause harm.

3. Censorship
Vocal vaccine deniers shut down critics and avoid open discussions. They ban comments or authors from communication platforms (social media, blogs etc.) and censor opposing opinions.

4. Attacking the opposition
Vocal vaccine deniers use personal insults and even legal actions to silence representatives of the scientific consensus.


http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/315761/Best-practice-guidance-respond-vocal-vaccine-deniers-public.pdf



Some comments from the Rogan podcast that you posted, anonjedi2.


Top comments

Jair Gutierrez 1 week ago
Half way through this video my friend tells me this guy labeled anti vaxers as hate groups using hate speech and that this guy went to school at Rockefeller. So i slaped the pause button and here I am reading the comment section instead.

Lexi G 5 hours ago
1) he will not debate anti vaxxers
2) wants to dismantle all anti vaxers from free speech online
3)wont make a pro vax documentary
4) his book is 19th behind anti vaxxers
Lol, any pro vaxxers who watches this are now anti vax because of scientists like this guy right here

Big Pete 1 week ago
I was pro-vaccine before i watched this video. But now...

Kevin Dillard 1 week ago (edited)
btw... Amazon is NOT "just a distributor" .. they are the largest seller of books.. NO close competitor online or brick and mortar.. they easily pick choose what they will and won't make available.. its not an open platform to simply peddle whatever and everything as perceived.. far from the case.. and this guy has had communication with Amazon AND Bezos personally on the issue of not selling/not offering/eliminating any opposing viewpoints.. (edited to add is that not being manipulated as a form of censorship). he's even posted in his own media about being upset that his books aren't ranked higher than they are. **52 million from the Gates Foundation... uhhh that's one hell of a "my salary comes mostly from the university and the rest is offset by grants... insert another sarcastic eyeroll and add a sigh for a cherry on top.

gorman1 1 week ago
"Its not chemicals its just antigens in salt water" ....Hmmmm.... From Merks MMR package insert. "The growth medium for measles and mumps is Medium 199 (a buffered salt solution containing vitamins and amino acids and supplemented with fetal bovine serum) containing SPGA (sucrose, phosphate, glutamate, and recombinant human albumin) as stabilizer and neomycin. The growth medium for rubella is Minimum Essential Medium (MEM) [a buffered salt solution containing vitamins and amino acids and supplemented with fetal bovine serum] containing recombinant human albumin and neomycin. Sorbitol and hydrolyzed gelatin stabilizer are added to the individual virus harvests."....yup doc....just salt water. Also the list of potential adverse effects is a page long, including death....but those anti vaxers are just loonies...

Jeremy Cox 6 days ago
Would someone ask that bow tie wearing smuck that #13 on the vaccine inserts states that they have not been tested for mutanagenic, carcinogenic potential, or impairment of fertility. If they want that untested crap put in their child I would have to question their sanity.

GoldFever44 1 week ago
Ban books? Sounds like Nazi Germany. These poison pushers want to shut down debate because they're loosing the argument. Ok fine, just stay off my doorstep.

FragThePlanet 1 week ago
I was born in the 80s when there were only several vaccines given and I feel ok. Then again I question authorities. Always have always will. Is it possible they're trying to vaccinate out freedom of thought? I mean we're having all sorts of problems with robotic kids these days who don't question enough.

wesley lowderback 1 week ago
"shouldn't we have a debate over it?" "don't give them legitimacy"....... this is exactly why anti vax is here, rather than explain and debate the issues, shut down the opposition. The community is HUNGRY for truth on MANY MANY MANY issues. It could be 5g, vax, the fed, Kennedy assassination, there are things that people just dismiss rather than hold an official debate and hash out the problems. If people are really not afraid of the anti vax communities, they should debate them openly, not argue that they are just stupid and trolling.

elbenfrau333 1 week ago
Bring Dr. Suzanne Humphries MD Ph.D. who gave up her practice to devote herself to the study of vaccine science (non-science) after noting vaccine injuries to her elderly patients

Valentina Vardanyan 1 week ago
If he was confident in his findings he would be open and willing to debate anyone against his position on vaccines. Encouraging censorship doesn’t help his argument, in fact it makes people question it!

Nunya Business 1 week ago
This guy is shady as hell. He wont debate anyone but he sure is quick to condemn people. He actually makes me trust the anti-vaxers a bit more with his avoidance.

Just a dude 1 week ago
This man embodies in one individual, the tenets of the inquisition and is itching to be at the forefront of a new one under the banner of Science. The nose up arrogance and contempt he directs towards reasoned human beings able to think critically without bias enabling them to ask reasonable honest and fair questions is that of a scared man who needs to wipe out all and any who question him. Dude takes snake oil to a whole new level

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dodsGp37M50



The more he speaks, the more people he turns against his cause. This guy's digging his own grave. :)
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Re: Vaccinations: The Medical, Legal, and Social Implication

Unread postby ICfreely on Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:16 am

New York county takes 'extremely unusual' step to ban unvaccinated minors from public places amid measles outbreak
By Debra Goldschmidt, CNN
Updated 9:57 AM ET, Wed March 27, 2019

(CNN)Unvaccinated people under age 18 are banned from public places in Rockland County, New York, as of midnight Wednesday, according to John Lyon, director of strategic communications for County Executive Ed Day.
Day announced the order Tuesday.
The declaration is an effort to contain an outbreak of measles that began in October; 153 cases have been confirmed in the county.
The outbreak began when an unvaccinated resident became infected while visiting Israel and returned with the disease. It has mostly affected observant Jewish neighborhoods.
New York City has reported 214 cases as of Wednesday from the outbreak, also in Orthodox Jewish communities, according to the city department of health.
"We're not punishing the people who are doing the right thing already and following the rules. We just want to encourage everyone to do the right thing so we can stop this outbreak," Rockland County's Lyon said. The step is "extremely unusual. [We] don't believe it's been done anywhere in the country before."
"State law gives health departments authority to broadly implement control measures in response to outbreaks," Jason McDonald, a spokesman for the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, wrote in an email, noting that the CDC provides technical assistance to state and local health departments.
Measles is a highly contagious virus that is prevented with the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine. The CDC recommends that the two-dose vaccine be given first at 12 to 15 months of age and then between ages 4 and 6.
This is the 26th week -- the sixth month -- of the outbreak in Rockland County, according to Lyon, who said it has been the longest outbreak in the United States since before measles was declared eliminated in 2000.
Day said the outbreak will not go on indefinitely. "This is a public health crisis, and it is time to sound the alarm, to ensure that everyone takes proper action to protect themselves and their neighbors; for the health and safety of all of us in Rockland," he said in a news release.
Public places include synagogues, churches, schools, restaurants, stores and public buses. "Public places are defined as: a place where more than 10 persons are intended to congregate," the news release says.
Children who are current with the vaccine schedule but not fully vaccinated against measles because they are not old enough are exempt from the order.
The order does not apply to people who are older than 18 because "we did not want to prevent anyone from going to work," but unvaccinated adults are also encouraged to get vaccinated.
It will be enforced the same way any law is enforced, according to Lyon: During the investigation into when and where an infected individual was exposed, those who are identified as unvaccinated and people in public places will be referred to the district attorney's office.
"The goal is not to prosecute people. We don't want to fine people. We want to encourage people to get vaccinated," he said.
In cases that are referred to the district attorney, Day said the penalty is six months in jail and/or a $500 fine.
"Just to be clear, this is not something we're looking to do. The emergency declaration, by law, comes with that assigned. It's the lowest crime there is." He admitted that police officers will not be walking around asking parents for proof of vaccination for their children. He also said this is just to draw attention to make people understand the seriousness of the situation.
Nearly 17,000 vaccinations have been administered in the county during the outbreak.
"As this outbreak has continued, our inspectors have begun to meet resistance from those they are trying to protect. They have been hung up on or told not to call again. They've been told 'we're not discussing this; do not come back' when visiting the homes of infected individuals as part of their investigations. This type of response is unacceptable and irresponsible. It endangers the health and well-being of others and displays a shocking lack of responsibility and concern for others in our community," Day said.
The outbreak has mainly been isolated in a couple of communities within Rockland County, which is just north of New York City, but the whole community is at risk, he said, noting that there have been complications among patients, including a premature labor and a handful of hospitalizations.
"Every new confirmed case is a roll of the dice that we'll see more complications. There's a lot that can go wrong with any case."
Statewide, there have been at least 378 cases of measles reported since October.
The CDC has reported 314 cases of measles nationwide this year as of Monday. That number reflects cases reported by state health departments as of Thursday but not cases reported since then.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/26/health/rockland-new-york-measles-unvaccinated-ban-bn/index.html



Hmmm…where have we seen this movie before?


A short history of Smallpox Vaccine
...
1763 Epidemic of smallpox in France attributed to inoculation. Practice prohibited for 5 years.
1791 Jenner inoculates his 18 month old son with swine-pox. In 1796 repeats using 'cow-poxmilkmaid' vaccine.
1796 First two vaccine test subjects, James Phipps and Jenner's son, both die later of TB before age 21.
1798 Jenner claims it was the “horse-grease cowpox” to have all the virtue against smallpox.
1802 Jenner extols to parliament, “the merits of cowpox alone which in his Inquiry he had condemned.” (in 1798)
1839 A smallpox epidemic swept England and killed 22,081 people.
1840 Smallpox inoculation, the method brought from Turkey in 1717 was condemned by Parliament.
1853 Smallpox vaccination made mandatory. Refusal punishable by fine.
1857-1859 Smallpox epidemic killed 14,244 people. 1863-1865 A second epidemic killed 20,059 lives.
1867 A more stringent compulsory vaccination law was passed. Refusal punishable by jail time.
1871 Population was 97.5% vaccinated.
1871-1880 During this period of compulsory vaccination, the death rate from smallpox leapt from 28 to 46 per 100,000 population.
1872 England experienced its worst ever smallpox epidemic which claimed 44,840 lives.

http://www.vaclib.org/legal/MTstate/smallpox.pdf
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Re: Vaccinations: The Medical, Legal, and Social Implication

Unread postby CluedIn on Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:56 pm

I don't know if I believe all the stories I read, but they keep their agendas in place even if the story isn't true.

Mom ignores doctor's advice to take kid to hospital with a fever of 100 - doctor suspects kid has meningitis because he's not vaccinated (that is how doctors make a leap now about a low grade fever? - Is there even a Meningitis vaccine?) Hospital calls doctor and tells them kid never made it to hospital and then SWAT breaks down door and social services scoops up all 3 kids. Must have new procedures where a doctor calls an ER to tell them a kid with a 100 degree fever is on the way. :P

https://reason.com/blog/2019/03/27/sick ... cs-parents

My 14 month old granddaughter has been dealing with an airway disorder for over a year now and we have become very friendly with the PICU nurses. My daughter-in-law is friends with one of the top nurses and they are FB friends. Yesterday this nurse (normal in all regard) posts this hysterical message about how they skipped their 4 year old's MMR vaccine because they didn't want to overload her on shots and would get it later. THEN, 5 (I said FIVE) measle cases were reported locally and she literally used the words "my heart is literally broken" that I didn't get her the shots. She goes on to carry her indoctrinated message forward and at the end she falls in line with her masters and tells people "there is no more debate about vaccines, they save lives." :puke:
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Re: Vaccinations: The Medical, Legal, and Social Implication

Unread postby ICfreely on Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:20 am

Bill Nye on Conspiracy Theorists: NASA's Moon Landing, Vaccines, Astrology, and Tarot Cards

full link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFLtTK13G2w
Big Think
Published on Apr 4, 2017

Denial comes in all flavors. Some think the moon landing was staged, some think Tupac is alive, and others reject vaccines. If the United States learnt anything in the 2016 election, it's that social bubbles need to be broken down — so how do you reason with someone who ignores evidence or bends it to fit their worldview? This has been on Bill Nye's mind more and more since climate change denial has become a political issue rather than a scientific one. People can't change their minds instantly when their beliefs are ingrained, so it's not a matter of convincing them on the spot. Nye suggests working together towards scientific understanding by tactfully pointing out that perhaps this person is rejecting evidence because the alternative makes them uncomfortable. Understanding is a process, not a flip switch. Bill Nye's most recent book is Unstoppable: Harnessing Science to Change the World.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFLtTK13G2w



Again with the "D" word? :rolleyes:

Bill Nye is scientism personified! He and his ilk are, under the guise of “science,” trying to usher in a Global Scientocracy founded on pseudo-science. They, in fact, are the true “anti-science” minded ones that they accuse their skeptics of being. That’s the irony of it all.

For the record:

1) I don't believe in astrology or tarot cards and have no reason to believe that Tupac or Elvis are still alive.
2) I do believe that the "moon landings" were staged.
3) I don't believe in the efficacy of ANY vaccines.
4) I haven't the slightest clue what "Climate Change" is.

1:35 “…but when it comes to moon landings, just ask the person how you would generate all that paperwork. The warehouses full of documentation that NASHA – NASA created…uh…to make landings on the moon would overwhelm any- anybody trying to do it on the side. You’d just- it’d just be very difficult to print all that.”


'K, Bill. If you say so.

"Nye suggests working together towards scientific understanding by tactfully pointing out that perhaps this person is rejecting evidence because the alternative makes them uncomfortable."


What makes me uncomfortable is the FACT that the IPCC started out promoting alarmist "Global Cooling" nonsense. Claiming that sun-blocking pollution would lead to a new "Ice Age" by the year 2000. That obviously never came to fruition. So they casually shifted to "Global Warming" which they claim is also due to pollution and will lead to rising ocean water levels. When the Climategate $chitt hit the fan in 2010 they settled on "Climate Change."


The Climategate Emails - Lavoisier Group
...
Introduction: Why Climategate is so Distressing to Scientists

The most difficult thing for a scientist in the era of Climategate is trying to explain to family and friends why it is so distressing to scientists. Most people don’t know how science really works: there are no popular television shows, movies or books that really depict the everyday lives of real scientists; it just isn’t exciting enough. I’m not talking here about the major discoveries of science—which are well-described in documentaries, popular science series, and magazines—but rather how the week-by-week process of science (often called the “scientific method”) actually works.

The best analogy that I have been able to come up with, in recent weeks, is the criminal justice system—which is often depicted in the popular media. Everyone knows what happens if the police obtain evidence by illegal means: the evidence is ruled inadmissible; and, if a case rests on that tainted evidence, it is thrown out of court. The justice system is not saying that the accused is necessarily innocent; rather, that determining the truth is impossible if evidence is not protected from tampering or fabrication.

The same is true in science: scientists assume that the rules of the scientific method have been followed, at least in any discipline that publishes its results for public consumption. It is that trust in the process that allows me, for example, to believe that the human genome has been mapped—despite my knowing nothing about that field of science at all. That same trust has allowed scientists at large to similarly believe in the results of climate science.

Until now.

So what are the “rules” of the scientific method? Actually, they are not all that different from those of the justice system. Just as it is a fundamental right of every affected party to be heard and fairly considered by the court, it is of crucial importance to science that all points of view be given a chance to be heard, and fairly debated. But, of course, it would be impossible to allow an “open slather” type of arrangement, like discussion forums on the Internet; so how do we admit all points of view, without descending into anarchy?

This question touches on something of a dark secret within science—one which most scientists, through the need for self-preservation, are scared to admit: most disciplines of science are, to a greater or lesser extent, controlled by fashions, biases and dogma. Why is this so? Because the mechanism by which scientific debate has been “regulated” to avoid anarchy—at least since the second half of the twentieth century—has been the “peer review” process. The career of any professional scientist lives or dies on their success in achieving publication of their papers in “peer reviewed” journals. So what, exactly, does “peer-reviewed” mean? Simply that other professional scientists in that discipline must agree that the paper is worthy of publication. And what is the criterion that determines who these “professional scientists” should be? Their success in achieving publication of their papers in peer-reviewed journals! Catch-22.
...

https://www.lavoisier.com.au/articles/greenhouse-science/climate.../climategate-emails.pd...
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Re: Vaccinations: The Medical, Legal, and Social Implication

Unread postby patrix on Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:12 am

Dear ICfreely,
I just want to thank you for your latest posts on vaccines. Very valuable information. History can tell us a great deal when we are able to find it.
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Re: Vaccinations: The Medical, Legal, and Social Implication

Unread postby memoryhole on Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:48 pm

You’re absolutely right Bill,

I will keep presenting the idea of cognitive dissonance to my friends and family. I can attest that it may take 2 years to wake up from the silliness of believing that we landed on the moon, that 2 aluminum planes knocked down 3 steel buildings on 9/11, and that injecting ourselves with a concoction of chemicals is somehow good for us. I would love to hear any other strategies you come across for speeding up the time for cognitive dissonance to be overcome.

I love the arguments you presented for the moon landings and vaccinations, are those your two strongest arguments you go to?

    1. There is so much NASA paperwork (warehouses full of documentation!) that it would overwhelm anyone trying to do it on the side and it would be very difficult to print all that.
    2. Without vaccines I wouldn't be here talking to you and if you go to any old cemetery you see all the tombstones of very young people who died of the flu.
Great points there Bill, you know I admired you as a young ignorant child but I've outgrown you now.
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